I feel like giving up!

Quote from Unquestionably:

Went into trading thinking that I'd make millions.

Wasted 4.8 years of swing trading only to find out I'm faring no better than taking up a McJob.

Should I have spent those years building up a business instead.


Trading is a waste of time.

Additional proofs:

Cooweb => Made millions in business. He wanted to make 200K/year and couldn't achieve this goal in 5 years.

Neke => Been trading since 1999 (+10 years; all time equuity high => $800K = <80K/year average).

(If you want the big money, go into business).



Just chillout,,, erase everything on your charts. Move to daily and trade small. oh first of all do you have a valid, verified by multi years system/methodology and the discipline to stick to it.

Only you can answer this truthfully, you can lie to us, but why lie to yourself,


"only you can prevent forest fires"

BEst of luck soldier

EF
 
Quote from the bouch:

Also the defining characteristic of most losing traders...



I wonder if he felt like giving up then







I went to my room and I closed the door and cried,"For a while I couldn't stop. Even though there was no one else home at the time, I kept the door shut. It was important to me that no one else hear me or see me."

In a sense, he owns the world. To me, though, perhaps the most remarkable part of his story is the fact that, as a sophomore in high school, he was cut from his school's basketball team. I kept wondering about how it affected him at the time it happened. He wanted to play with the others, and was told that he wasn't good enough.

One evening, as we sat and talked before a game, he spoke about it. I wasn't surprised that he remembered every detail.

"For about two weeks, every boy who had tried out for the basketball team knew what day the cut list was going to go up," he said. "We knew that it was going to be posted in the gym in the morning.

"So that morning we all went in there and the list was up. I had a friend, and we went in to look at the list together.

"We stood there and looked for our names. If your name was on the list, you were still on the team. If your name wasn't on the list, you were cut. His name was on the list. He made it. Mine wasn't on the list.

"I looked and looked for my name," he said. "It was almost as if I thought that if I didn't stop looking, it would be there."

he, as if envisioning the list anew, said: "It's alphabeticaland I wasn't there, and I went back up and started over again. But I wasn't there.

"I went through the day numb. I sat through my classes. I had to wait until after school to go home. That's when I hurried to my house and I closed the door of my room and I cried so hard. It was all I wanted -- to play on that team.

"My mother was at work, so I waited until she got home, and then I told her. She knew before I said anything that something was wrong, and I told her I had been cut from the team. When you tell your mom something like that the tears start again, and the two of you have an after-cry together."

At the end of that basketball season, he said, he asked the coach if he could right the bus with the team to the district tournament. Just to watch the other boys play.

"The coach told me no." He said. "But I asked again, and he said I could come. But when we got to the gym, he said he didn't know if I could go in. He told me that the only way I could go in was to carry the players' uniforms. So that's what I did. I walked into the building carrying the uniforms for the players who had made the team. What made me feel the worst about that was that my parents had come to watch the tournament, and when they saw me walking in carrying the uniforms, they thought I was being given the chance to play.

"That's what hurt me. They thought I was being given a chance."

He is very likely the best basketball player who ever lived. If you ever wondered why he continues to work so hard, the answer may lie in this story. It must be so rare for a professional athlete to have once been cut from a high school team. The men who make it to the pros have always been the best on every playground, the best in every class, the best in every school.

"It's OK, though," he said. "It's probably good that it happened."

Good?

"I think so," Jordan said. "It was good because it made me know what disappointment felt like," he said. "And I knew that I didn't want to have that feeling ever again."
 
some traders get burnt, clearly....The key for me is never getting too greedy. The "small chips" philosophy by derek newman of wall street has helped me out considerably with my psyche and risk management approach. Never get greedy.....or you will get burnt.......
 
Quote from Cache Landing:

Below is the most accurate representation for success rate of new single establishments over ten years.

The only question is which year are you talking about, and what defines success. I suppose that there are a huge portion that are barely turning a profit of $15-20K annual. Don't know that I would call that a success. But everyone uses their own yardstick.

Being around doesn't always mean profitable. It just means that the business owners have not given up completely. Some of these might had added capital to survive.
 
Quote from hippie:

Being around doesn't always mean profitable. It just means that the business owners have not given up completely. Some of these might had added capital to survive.

Pretty much what I was alluding to in my post that you quoted.
 
Chances are that your losses were someone else gain.

There are many ways to make money in the markets, the irony is that they are all very difficult to find. In my case was to trade in a systematic way and follow my rules so that I don't have to predict anything. I am not making millions either, but I can do this full time and not stress out about money or about getting a job.

By the way it is said that it takes 10 years to become an expert at anything. Should you give up ?

If after 5 years I couldn't make money in a consistent way, I would. Trading is challenging and can be fun, but if one can't make any money, why bother ?

Quote from Unquestionably:

Went into trading thinking that I'd make millions.

Wasted 4.8 years of swing trading only to find out I'm faring no better than taking up a McJob.

Should I have spent those years building up a business instead.

Trading is a waste of time [...]

(If you want the big money, go into business).
 
Quote from Unquestionably:

Excuse all the negativity below, but I simple feel the need to vent:

Ten Reasons Why Trading Sucks, and Why You Should Go Into Business Instead

1. In business, you can turn $5k into $100k's. In trading, you need at least $100k.

2. In business, you can be making millions after five years. In trading, you need at least 5 years of learning to average $20k/year, only then do you get to see low-mid 6 figures a year.

3. In business, you can set aside as much capital as you need to expand. In stock trading, you are limited to $50k / swing trade. Put anymore capital in and the manipulator will freak out and back out from their original plan, leaving you with a failed pattern.

4. In business, you soon have cash flow. In trading, your cash flow sucks or is non-existant until after the 5th year.

5. In business, you don't feel like committing suicide if it fails. You simple start another venture. In trading, you don't like how you feel after a significant draw down.

6. In business, you exploit other ppl's weaknesses. In stock trading, you wait behind the bush to ambush the innocent.

7. In business, at least ppl get something in return for giving you their money. In trading, ppl are left with nothing after giving you their money (coveting other ppl's properties).

8. Most great stock traders committed suicide after they lost everything (Jesse Livermore, Nicolas Darvas). Most great business men lived on after they've lost their fortune (William Durant).

9. In business, you can go on vacation. In stock trading, you must be present online every single trading day (or check on the behavior of your 'system').

10. In business, you face competition and your income dwindles slowly, giving you time to react. In trading, your 'system' stops working suddenly.


This is among the worst reasoning I've ever seen. I don't have time to go over why this stuff is so wrong and more importantly, so situation-specific.
 
Quote from redone:

You need to seek the advice of a quality prop firm like Bright Trading. Don Brite is on this board and he can assist you in getting started.

You're being sarcastic right? Don Bright will help himself to some of the trader's money under the guise of training fees and commissions. It's not going to do jack for the trader. Bright Trading is not a non-profit educational institution. To the contrary, it is a for-profit organization operated for the benefit of the Bright family. In point of fact, Don Bright realized long ago what I pointed out on the second post of this thread: Trading may be a waste of time, but selling to traders is not. SMB Capital Trading arrived at the same conclusion, which is why they're expanding their educational services to include options.
 
I haven't done much on the emini's this year because of the trading enviornment. I think people forget that the markets have had their biggest crash in the history, and the market will put in some down time before it picks up again. Anyone trading through the dotcom crash should know what I mean.

There have been opportunities in ES if you're only trading small size, but I trade quite a lot of size and I need to iceburg my orders in, so for me personally, there have been better opps out there, rather than trading outrights in ES. The money I make from ES trades more than qualifies earning a living out of the emini's, but the emini's are not my sole market. I run my own fund and manage a lot of other peoples money, so sticking to just one product and style isn't the name of my game. So far this year, a lot of the stuff i've been doing have been various spreads like 10's under 2's flatteners as the yield curve has dropped, TuT's, Eurostoxx/Dax spreads, schatz, bobl, bund flies etc. Also been active in cable and the yen.


For most of you guys you shouldn't be risking more then 1% per trade, or per day when day trading. You're simply not experienced enough to handle more risk. Even at 2% you're gonna surprise yourself how much captial you chew through on a bad run, and you will have a bad run. Also you have to be realistic about how much you're going to make from the markets. Yes you get the odd person once every blue moon who turns a $5k account into $1,000,000, but you've got more chance of winning the lottery than being that guy. If you want to earn millions from trading, then you need to be trading millions. I earn multiple 7 figures in a year, but i'm trading multiple 7 figure accounts for clients. If you want to earn hundreds of thousands a year, then you need to be trading hundreds of thousands, on so on down the list we go. If anyone tells you otherwise then they're living in a fantasy land or they haven't been trading for very long.

This isn't going to be what most people want to hear, but if you're serious about trading full time for living, then the very least you need in trading captial is $100,000. Forget all that $500 margin rubbish because it's complete bollocks to sucker you into thinking you can make a fortune off a small amount. You can trade 10 contracts in ES per $100,000, then ontop of that, you need cash reserves in the bank for when you hit downdraw etc. Out of the profits you make each month, you're gonna only be paying yourself 50% and leaving the other half in the trading account for your trading captial to grow.

Lets say you turn out to be a good strong trader, and you can average 30pts a month over a year by day trading (a lot harder than what you think!), so without even taking into consideration commissions which are completely ridiculous for you retail guys, this is what you're gonna make.... and this is completely hypothetical and in a perfect world... which we don't live in..... oh and it doesn't take into consideration any over heads.

10 ES contracts = $500 per point.
30pt profit a month average = $15,000
50% wage to yourself to live on = $7500

Now lets include some basic costs.... and lets say you average 6 round trips a week at $4.80 a roundie working on a 4 week month to keep it simple....

30pt profit = $15,000

Cost of Round Trips -$1152
TT X trader - $1500
CQG - $600
News Feed - $300
Net Costs - $3,552

Net Profit - $11,448
What you pay youself.... $5724

So this is a very basic example, and doesn't take a lot of things into consideration, and it is making the assumption that you can consistently make 30pts a month, and we all know how assumptions are the mother of all screw ups. So on a $100,000 account you're walking out with $5724 a month as a wage that you're gonna live on. The other half is staying in your trading account to build up your trading captial.

I bet 99.9% of you don't have $100,000 trading captial, let alone savings ontop of that to last you a year. I'm not saying that to be a moron, but it's just the reality that you have to accept. I've been there, done it, got the t shirt. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just spinning their own ego off. I mentioned in my blog post, the expectations that 99.9% of retail traders have about trading are on the same level as people getting up one day and deciding they're gonna start an oil company out of their bedroom on $10,000 and they're gonna take on the likes of Shell, BP, Mobile etc

Now if you do have the captial to get involved with trading properly, then you need to find someone to train you properly. Going to webinars your broker sends you is pretty much searching through the 'never has been anything' box. You have to accept that retail brokers, and retail education on the whole is just a fools gold market and the only people making money in the retail world are the people selling the shovels.

If you haven't got that type of trading captial, then all this is going to be is a part time hobby that you'll be able to pay for a few holidays with if you get good.

These are your options....

1. You're suffeciently funded to give trading a go full time... You need to find an experience trader that will mentor you. I would only class someone as an experienced mentor if they've consistently earned over $300,000 a year for 3 years or more. Be realistic too, mentorship isn't going to be cheap, just like going to college to be a doctor or a lawyer isn't cheap. It's going take time for you to learn the business, and they're probably going to want a take of your profits. For example I take 20% of profits a month from someone I decide to mentor... What do you want... 100% of nothing or 80% of a few grand?

2. You haven't quite got $100k type money to trade with.... You can still get a mentor but obviously it's gonna hit your bottom line more. If you're a single young person, then it could work for you, otherwise you fall into catagory 3.

3. You not properly funded to trade full time..... Either save up more money, or this is just a part time gig for you. Give it a go and see what happens. Like I say, you might be able to pay for the odd dirty weekend away with the girlfriend/boyfriend. For you young ones, you need to be trying to get in at a firm. Unless you're a rich kid and you're parents are gonna back you a few hundred grand, you need to stay in school, work hard, and get good at writing C.V's and be thinking of a good speech for when asked 'why do you want to be a trader' If you get knocked back at interviews, just keep on applying. It shows persistence and dedication, and that's what we like to see in someone when we're hiring a grad.


It is what it is.

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f32/does-anyone-truly-make-living-solely-7744.html
 
Trading markets defeats most amateur traders - just a matter of time, either quickly or more slowly.

Yet the logic required to win is simple enough. Lets ask the basic questions applying to an amateur.
What is my obvious restriction: limited capital.
What should I be doing: daytrading.
Why should I choose daytrading: to access the most number of points per day.
Where are the most points: in the daily gyrations, the intraday swings from open to close.
So what market do I choose: a volatile and liquid futures market (eg CL).
What essentially will I be doing: taking the most points you can from each swing.
How do I do that: adopt or devise a reliable methodology
How do I get to that methodology: to get there it needs your time and focus where you must rigorously get to know the metrics of the market you choose to trade and you must apply a trading system to dependably capture net points daily from the intraday swings.

Of course there is more to it than the outline above but it is your basic table of action.
:)
 
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