Hypnosis Anyone?

Andy, the golf analogy as well as your other observations are right on.

AAA, I would respectfully dispute that trading is about p&l. I believe it's about managing risk and probabilities, not being right. Dollar counting is a sin that can ruin a trader. If you trade well, the profit comes automatically, you don't even need to pay attention to it.
 
Originally posted by bundlemaker
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AAA, I would respectfully dispute that trading is about p&l. I believe it's about managing risk and probabilities, not being right. Dollar counting is a sin that can ruin a trader. If you trade well, the profit comes automatically, you don't even need to pay attention to it.
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I don't think we are disagreeing on this, maybe just using different terminology. Trading is not about being right. Your account statemtn doesn't have a line at the bottom that syas "percentage correct trades", it says account equity. Of course I agree that profits flow from managing risk and probabilities, that's a given. To me, that means I'm concentrating on the money, ie risk and probablilites of winning, rather thanbeing right, ie this trade MUST work.

I appreciate your previous efforts to expand on this a little. Clearly it is something that requires a good bit of study and effort to understand fully, but your examples show the potential value.
 
AAA, I'd say you hit it on the nose. Two people with seemingly identical beliefs can produce wildly different results due to interpretation, experiences, environment, etc. NLP trys to make communication more accurate (primarily through a device known as the "meta-model") and hypnosis attempts to remove accuracy from communication. They are sort of opposites. Yet, used together, they can be used to create tremendous change and increase awareness. For me, I'm astounded when I consider things that I took as fact, appeared for all the world like fact, and "everybody" agreed was fact, yet was really just my belief.

Here's a mind blower for you: The only reason you (meaning any given individual) doesn't have what they desire is because they don't believe they have it.

Now, I don't know about you, but the first time I read that it just zoned me out. The second time I read it, well if ever there was psycho babble double talk, I was convinced that was it. A valuable personal coach told me I had a *belief* that I didn't have any money. I told him (in not very polite words) that it wasn't a belief, it was a fact, my wallet, checking account and savings account are empty!

It took me a longggggggg time to understand (whatever that means) that all that matters are beliefs and whether they are helping you or hindering you. Whether the belief is/was based in fact was a triviality. This is so different from anything that we have learned over our whole lives that it's bound to cause a person to violently disagree, I certainly did. I was a real world, practical, get the job done now kind of guy. An author I greatly respect is Wayne Dyer, and I read his book When You Believe it You'll See It. Still didn't phase me. It's not that I didn't get it, I just plain knew it was wrong. I felt that way until one day when I just exploded. I was unhappy in every possible way. I was screwing up a fantastic marriage. I had destroyed my health. I literally was punching holes with my fist through doors. It was not a good place to be. But, let me tell you, really feeling that level of pain did something. I've never been the same since. Nothing else had worked in my life, I had great dreams. The only thing left to do was to chuck every preconceived notion I had and start from scratch. I wouldn't not reccomend this method to anyone. It just worked out for me that way. I'm sharing this because I know first hand how difficult it can be to change beliefs. But the second you do it, it's not difficult anymore. And the rewards are incredible.

I digress way too much, and I apologize to all rambling on. It's a good reminder for me though, to think through where I've been, where I am, and where I'm going. Now, that's exciting.
 
Originally posted by bundlemaker
Whether the belief is/was based in fact was a triviality. I'm sharing this because I know first hand how difficult it can be to change beliefs. But the second you do it, it's not difficult anymore. And the rewards are incredible.

I digress way too much, and I apologize to all rambling on. ..
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please ramble on, I like to hear more about "Whether the belief is/was based in fact was a triviality" is there any support evident to this?
 
nkhoi, not sure if I understand your question. If your asking whether or not there is any, shall we say, scientific evidence to support this: well, I don't know. More importantly, it doesn't matter. Usually, waiting for the "experts" to say something works because they discovered how it works means missing out on the benefits. We use our computers to trade everyday, but virtually none of us have an inkling as to how it works. That doesn't prevent us from using them though, does it. I beleive this is a major problem with society today. We tend to wait for the experts to tell us they figured something out and it's okay to use it. Sure, this may entail some risk. Then again, so does living. Example: for decades a very few (very smart) medical people espoused the benefits of large dossages of vitamin C. The overwhelming majority of the scientific community accused these people of quackery. Now, low and behold, "they" admit that maybe there is something to this vitamin C thing. My philosophy is, use reason and common sense and make my own decisions.

The real test of the voracity of any idea is: has it worked for any other person. Getting back to basic NLP principles and modeling, a given is the notion that any behaviour, skill, or process is duplicatable by anyone else; so long as a suitable strategy is employed and that person has a biologically correct brain and nervous system.

If I'm not getting your question, please rephrase.
 
Beside yourself, have you seen anybody else apply the belief "When You Believe it You'll See It" principle and witness it working, I am not challenging you, I am looking for some actual happening.
 
nkhoi,

no challenge taken, just wasn't sure what you meant. Yes, besides my own changes I personally know several people who have applied this and made it work (as well as most of the other NLP and hypnosis stuff we've been talking about, but of course there are endless ways to improve and educate yourself, I'll use anything to get me faster to where I want to go). I bet you have met people like this too, you just didn't realize it at the time. The example that comes to mind is when you come accross someone who you know is a complete jackass, a real moron, no personality and something shy of a full deck of neurons. This person is a fabulously successful salesperson. Why? Because first and foremost he believed he/she was. And if you don't think there is a real world implication to that, look at Ross Perots last pay check.

But, here is the catch 22 that I got myself into. I kept looking for proof instead of just using the concept fully and faithfully. It's when I stopped asking will this work, can this work, who has it worked for, how do I know for sure it will work; and instead just decided it would work. I hope that helps a little.
 
Originally posted by bundlemaker
But, here is the catch 22 that I got myself into. I kept looking for proof instead of just using the concept fully and faithfully. It's when I stopped asking will this work, can this work, who has it worked for, how do I know for sure it will work; and instead just decided it would work. I hope that helps a little.
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It sounds like you developed faith. You stopped doubting, and began to believe in yourself and the program.

The thing I noticed from Market Wizards and the New Market Wizard is the similiarity of attitudes between different traders. Some of them had to change their beliefs in order to make money.

well gotta go,
Andy
 
Bundlemaker, I liked how you look at how chart patterns fail, rather than how they work. It's an interesting approach, and obviously it has helped you. Well we've covered some good beliefs in trading.... what about bad beliefs that are detrimental to our success? I'm sure that there's a lot, but how about we start with the most common "bad" beliefs.

So if we realize we do have one of these bad beliefs, how could we overcome them?

thanks,
Andy
 
I think the most destructive beliefs are those you don't even realize you have, so you've got to be honest and open with yourself in investigating anything that might be affecting your behavior.

For myself, the worst was an idea that "nothing ever works out for me". How's that for useful, LOL. I incanted that for so long it became a self fulling prophecy. We each tend to have a primary question that we repeatedly ask ourselves. Embedded within that question lies a presupposition. In my case the presup was: nothing ever works for me. It's something that you filter most of your life through. It is usually unconsciously used, or at least not consciously noticed. Examples of primary questions would be: how can I protect myself, what are people thinking about me, how can I change peoples opinion of me?Get a friend to help you figure yours out, it may reveal a lot.

Once you figure out what the question is ask yourself this: what do I get by meeting the object of this question. To confirm you have found your primary question ask: what do I believe about this, If I don't meet this question what will it mean.

To replace your primary question with something better you should 1) be able to control the outcome of the question 2) should give you something you need 3) presupposes you can get it now. For example: what can I do in this moment to manage my state for maximum discipline.

Other things to watch out for in the negative belief department is stuff like, "I don't deserve it, making money is hard, only insiders have the secrets to trading, I'm probably not smart enough.

All beliefs by definition are self fullfilling. It's not usually too hard to figure out the ones you need to erradicate. Problem is, no one ever told us how to do that. I'll post later today about changing beliefs.
 
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