Honest question...

Quote from maxpi:

Satan hates God and he hates man who is made in God's image. You can't necessarily get a real feel for this situation through your intellect but if you get into healing ministries you might, though most are pretty ineffective. I have sat in a few meetings of one very effective one wherein we confronted satan in people and we actually got him to talk. The first time I experienced that I was sitting right next to this kid that was brought in because he was a bully and he was acting out and what not. His parents were drug addicts and satan worshippers and had sold all the future generations to satan, the kid included. The gifted leader and people with lots of experience could hear from the Holy Spirit and find out what is troubling people and we did that and we asked the name of the troubling spirit and we asked it to defend it's right to control the kid. It said it's name was satan. I was sitting right next to the kid and when I heard that I was actually looking for the exits. It was very startling. After awhile the leader took authority over satan in the name of Jesus and sent him away. The transformation in the kid was profound, he was crying and his appearance went from a very defiant, repulsive and messed up looking kid to a really nice looking one. He was hugging the pastor and everything, he really appreciated what was done for him.
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I know this is considered weird and uncomfortable, but I'll chime in and say that I have also seen a number of times "deliverances" and "encounters" with demonic forces. I can only emphasize that these were NOT in individuals struggling with mental health!

This is one of the reasons that I find complete materialism so bizarre - it is simply unimaginable to me that someone would believe that there was no spiritual reality behind the physical. I have encountered this kind of stuff both from the occult and the theistic side of things and so the prevalence of anti-supernaturalism takes me completely by surprise every time.

But I recognize that we're all entitled to our opinions of course...
 
Quote from jem:

DB many christians recognize they must live in a society not governed by a universal belief in God. You realize that Barry Lynn is a preacher. The guy who heads the organization that always argues for the seperation of church and state. He wrote the ACLU guide to Religious Rights.

My points above which were edited while you were writing are not hinged on God. They are hinged on what is right.

In addition to my belief that there are absolutes and perfection, it seems to me that 1 plus 1 equals two regardless of langauge cultural backgroud or bias or any other tools. Relativistic tools and arguements were used by socialist and communist leaders to reconstruct their society. I


If no one can determine what is right because there is no right no one can say Hitler or Stalin or even George W. Bush is wrong.

In response to the Oddiduro comment, if it is O.K. to commit genocide just because some cultures have done it... then I guess there really is no right from wrong and Satan (or evil or the darkside) really has won.

P.S. I think of slavery, I think of a problem in some of the communities in San Diego where young girls were having their clits removed and their vagina's sewn almost closed because their parents did it that way in the old country. Now this is not necesarily my stongest argument for natural law, but it should sure swing a few liberal votes to my side of the fence.
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LOL....genocide is a relative term, much like the others. In your history books, I believe the term for genocide was manifest destiny. So is this land stolen, and if so, should we give it back?

As far those women and their vaginas, are you saying that what they did was wrong? If so, how did you make such a determination?

In regards to slavery, are you referring to physical, mental or ecomonic slavery? Which religion speaks out against slavery? If Christianity is your basis, God had no problem with it at all, in either the old or the new testament.

Regards
Oddi
 
You're mixing absolutism with belief, jem, which can lead to a great deal of confusion at some point unless one adopts a very narrow focus, which unfortunately often leads to intolerance and persecution.

Hitler was "wrong" according to our values, but there is nothing absolutely wrong about genocide or even murder. A failure to think these things through is one reason why we have so much difficulty grappling with abortion and euthanasia.
 
Before you decide that someone can be possessed by the devil you should be aware of a true life experience that happened to me.

In my late thirties, I became severely depressed about my job to the point that I was taking tranquilizers.

Fortunately, I found out about a psychiatrist who treated depression and any other mental condition with hypnotherapy.

I sought him out and he treated me and changed my whole outlook on life. I was an excellent patient because I was easily hypnotized.

After several sessions of hypnosis, when he was convinced that I was ready for treatment, he separated my conscious mind from my subconscious mind and then began my treatment.

I will never forget the moment when he told my conscious mind to remain quiet and listen while he questioned my subconscious mind which turned out to be an entirely different person.

He said, "Peter are you here" and without any help from me this terrible loud growl emminated from my mouth and replied, "Yes I'm in here". It was truly scary and as close to the occult as I have ever come. An entirely different and unrecognizable entity came forth!

Then he said, "How do you feel" and the entity again growled, "I feel terrible and I'm mad as hell".

He said, "Peter who are you" and again the entity replied "I am nothing".

He said,"Why are you nothing" and the subconscious mind replied, "Because I am dead"!

Well there was a lot more to the treatment than I care to go into here, but this therapy lasted about 6 months and it changed my life.

Eventually, he told me that I was suffering from Zombie Syndrome because of something that happened to me when I was a very young child. My older brother was run over by a truck before I was born and my mother told me that I was the reincarnation of him when I was about three or four years old. She ever gave me the same name!

He also told me that the subconscious mind picks up tidbits of information throughout your life. It cannot see and it cannot reason but it can have serious effects on your conscious state of mind and how you react with other individuals, if it latches on to erroneous information.

This experience made a permanent change in my life, so once in a while if I meet someone who is severely depressed, I will tell them my story and once in a while they will tell me that , in reality, I was possessed by the devil.

regards:D
 
Quote from dbphoenix:

Hitler was "wrong" according to our values, but there is nothing absolutely wrong about genocide or even murder. A failure to think these things through is one reason why we have so much difficulty grappling with abortion and euthanasia.
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No, I have to disagree here and say that Hitler was wrong both in our values and in an absolute sense. Genocide is wrong. Even in the animal kingdom, you seldom see animals killing other animals just for shits and giggles. Usually it is for food, mating and other survival needs.

Perhaps Hitler thought that by exterminating all jews, he was helping the survival of Germany's economy at the time. He may have felt very strongly about this and knew "instinctively" that he was right, but one of the responsibilities that comes with being human is recognizing in a very clear form the distinction between right and wrong and good and evil. Killing another man based solely on their culture is an inherent evil, no matter what culture or person is doing the killing or who is being killed.

The problem today is that many people are unable to make the distinction and then unwilling to accept the consequences. If you commit an act of murder or genocide against another person, race or culture, you automatically invalidate the right for your own culture's existence.

Even from a purely evolutionary perspective, the feeling of "remorse" and "repentance" is generally a universe feeling when one accidently kills another human. We know this instinctively from evolutionary values we have acquired (if you are an atheist) -- or from a religious perspective if you believe in god.

God doesn't condone the killing of another man, but unfortunately the interpretation of many Christian, Jewish and Islamic extremists believe otherwise. Just because extremists from a specific religion commit acts of terrorism, war or genocide does not mean that values of good and evil do not exist. Men have free will and many men are sick spiritually.
 
Quote from aphexcoil:


God doesn't condone the killing of another man, but unfortunately the interpretation of many Christian, Jewish and Islamic extremists believe otherwise.
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Hey, now let's be fair here. The bloodiest regimes in history have been the atheistic (i.e hardline Communist): Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.
 
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

Hey, now let's be fair here. The bloodiest regimes in history have been the atheistic (i.e hardline Communist): Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.
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True. If I'm not mistaken, one of the many reasons the United States placed god on the dollar bill and in other parts of government was to separate itself from the communist / godless image of the Soviet Union during the cold war.
 
Quote from hoodooman:

Before you decide that someone can be possessed by the devil you should be aware of a true life experience that happened to me.

In my late thirties, I became severely depressed about my job to the point that I was taking tranquilizers.

Fortunately, I found out about a psychiatrist who treated depression and any other mental condition with hypnotherapy.

I sought him out and he treated me and changed my whole outlook on life. I was an excellent patient because I was easily hypnotized.

After several sessions of hypnosis, when he was convinced that I was ready for treatment, he separated my conscious mind from my subconscious mind and then began my treatment.

I will never forget the moment when he told my conscious mind to remain quiet and listen while he questioned my subconscious mind which turned out to be an entirely different person.

He said, "Peter are you here" and without any help from me this terrible loud growl emminated from my mouth and replied, "Yes I'm in here". It was truly scary and as close to the occult as I have ever come. An entirely different and unrecognizable entity came forth!

Then he said, "How do you feel" and the entity again growled, "I feel terrible and I'm mad as hell".

He said, "Peter who are you" and again the entity replied "I am nothing".

He said,"Why are you nothing" and the subconscious mind replied, "Because I am dead"!

Well there was a lot more to the treatment than I care to go into here, but this therapy lasted about 6 months and it changed my life.

Eventually, he told me that I was suffering from Zombie Syndrome because of something that happened to me when I was a very young child. My older brother was run over by a truck before I was born and my mother told me that I was the reincarnation of him when I was about three or four years old. She ever gave me the same name!

He also told me that the subconscious mind picks up tidbits of information throughout your life. It cannot see and it cannot reason but it can have serious effects on your conscious state of mind and how you react with other individuals, if it latches on to erroneous information.

This experience made a permanent change in my life, so once in a while if I meet someone who is severely depressed, I will tell them my story and once in a while they will tell me that , in reality, I was possessed by the devil.

regards:D
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I think those people were very wrong to make an assumption like that. The power of the subconsciousis is, if you'll pardon the expression, mind-boggling.

But there's a big difference between what you're talking about and what I'm talking about and that difference is time. You said that in 6 mos it changed your life. Generally, someone who experiences "deliverance", as Christians call it, gets immediate relief - the change in their outlook and personality is dramatic and virtually instant. In addition, there is often a "violent" response and generally it is not something that could happen casually in a therapists' office...

But I get your point: don't make assumptions in every case. Another example of this is I was giving a message one time and was just about to invite those in the audience to "accept Christ". (I'm not getting preachy - it's just part of the story) when one of the men in the audience fell to the ground and began foaming at the mouth. Turns out he actually had epilepsy...
 
Quote from aphexcoil:

True. If I'm not mistaken, one of the many reasons the United States placed god on the dollar bill and in other parts of government was to separate itself from the communist / godless image of the Soviet Union during the cold war.
More...

Now that is interesting! I always wondered why that showed up so late in our history. That makes a lot of sense...
 
I know that genocide is wrong because I surmise that it violates Natural Law. I understand that one might not want someone else to claim to be the arbiter of natural law ( I am not claiming to be the arbiter either) but nevertheless that is what much of our legal system was founded upon.

We could discuss the evolution of western thought and law but I think you are familiar with these things. I do know that I could not do a better job describing this than Plato. I do know that Locke and Rousseau discussed inalienable rights and that concept is the bedrock of the United States and many other western countries. These rights came to us from the Creator according to our founders.

I do not have to be for giving our country back to the Indians to know that killing the Indians and their buffalo was wrong.

Db people might confuse belief with absolutes I agree. But I think it is the relativistic thinkers that get it wrong.

LET ME BE CLEAR ONE MAY HAVE A BELIEF IN ABSOLUTES WITHOUT believing THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. I know that there is right from wrong but that is as far as I go. After that reason and intellect must be used to achieve goals in line with natural law. But some things must be right or wrong or else it is all just a waste.

Murder (not killing) is wrong. Genocide is wrong. Clitorectomies performed on little girls with dirty knives by family members is wrong. Nambla is wrong. Now if I am wrong then I am wrong about my entire world view. That is possible but I think not likely.
 
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