Help needed - I overtrade after 11am

[Bad_Badness]

Ken,

Square hole, square peg in AM, Round hole, square peg in PM. Get a round peg for the PM.

It should be easy to see that one setup does not fit all types of markets. Especially the way you are running stops tight.

Option 1: Get a method that works ALL the time. Usually something like small targets large stops; 3:1 Risk reward. Still got to work the trend-momentum though.
Option 2: Get multiple methods that work some of the time, and DO NOT work all the time. Get trending setups, entries exit stops, and get range setups-entries and stops. Know when to use which. A 5 min time frame with a couple of MAs would help set a context. Watch the average volume, it is pretty clear when it drops off.
Option 3: Don't trade all the time. Take a new hobby that REQUIRES you to show up after the AM plays out.

Everyone who day trades encounters this. How quickly you get through it is what matters.
Best trading to you.

 

[KCalhoun]

Ken,

Square hole, square peg in AM, Round hole, square peg in PM. Get a round peg for the PM.

It should be easy to see that one setup does not fit all types of markets. Especially the way you are running stops tight.

Option 1: Get a method that works ALL the time. Usually something like small targets large stops; 3:1 Risk reward. Still got to work the trend-momentum though.
Option 2: Get multiple methods that work some of the time, and DO NOT work all the time. Get trending setups, entries exit stops, and get range setups-entries and stops. Know when to use which. A 5 min time frame with a couple of MAs would help set a context. Watch the average volume, it is pretty clear when it drops off.
Option 3: Don't trade all the time. Take a new hobby that REQUIRES you to show up after the AM plays out.

Everyone who day trades encounters this. How quickly you get through it is what matters.
Best trading to you.

Very smart, thx. I like your idea regarding square peg square hole xcetera to test different stops and entry-exit methods for am versus end of day trade setups. I like entering trade sequences 100 to 400 shares at a time, building up to 1,000 shares or so during the run-up, then timing of trailing stops manually worked really good today a.m. and p.m.. good reminder regarding using volume, I'll pay more attention to increasing volume bars while scaling in.

I use a blend of both trailing and hard stops, usually what works best is to trade heavier share size like 300 to 400 share blocks in a tightly focused series of OTO orders. I'll screencap soon.

Big picture fwiw I also trade a lot of other tickers other than inverses for day trades, though I just don't talk about all the one-off trades here on the forum, though I'll start since I do a lot of different positions

Great thread everyone, sincere thx

 

[volpri]

I find that at my age my brain starts getting tired around 11:00 a.m. So my best trading is usually done by then. If for some unknown reason my brain is not tired I may trade all day. But when I am tired I make mistakes.

There is a saying "practice makes perfect". If you tend to make your money in the morning part of the session then trade with money in the a.m. To then not give that money back continue trading in the afternoon but on a SIM. You may find, that overtime, practicing on a SIM in the P.M. that you may actually start to not lose, but make even more money. I say this because obviously you like trading and are passionate about it. You just "like" the game. But the goal is to enjoy it and to ALSO make and keep money. So, you can stay connected to the game via a SIM in the P.M. and conserve your profits from the A.M. part of the session.

Just an idea. Think about it. $$$ and still engaged with the markets. You can even make a competition out of it. See if your P.M. SIM trading can make twice as much as your A.M. money part of the session.

 

[Laissez Faire]

Hi Ken,

This is a personal anecdote. Hopefully, you can draw something helpful out of it. Back in 2003-2004, there was this Cuban NASDAQ day-trader (I believe he started in 1996-1997). I sat on the same desk, 2 seats away from him. The thing is that he only traded pre-market. He would be ready at his desk at 8:00am EST, trade pre-market stocks, in-play, and be out by 9:00am, or 9:30am at the LATEST. He would be flat by then, no matter what. Even if it was a loss, he was disciplined about it, and he would puke the position, no ifs and buts.

I watched him over a year, making $30K-$50K a month, consistently. Obviously, he was a freak of nature, a natural talent. He had a fishing boat, and I clearly remember one morning, around 9:15am, when he had turned off his workstation, and he was done for the day, he said: "damn, I am so bored, I have taken the boat out 3 times this week, I don't know what the Fuck I am going to do for the rest of the day".

I asked him: "Why don't you keep trading?"

He answered: "I always lose after 9:30am"

Whenever, I think that my day is boring, or that I am not trading enough, I think of him ("Ralph"). It's not about how long you stay on the desk, IT'S ONLY ABOUT THE MONEY YOU GET TO KEEP...

PS. I have read about these "one-hour" traders, in books (think Mark Douglas's client; I think it was the Pit Bond trader). A VERY different thing is to witness it for REAL.

Not quite the same, but reminds me of a full time trader I spoke to only very briefly a while back. He would simply take 1 full ES point with 30-50 contracts and then he was done no matter what. Usually, within the 1st hour. If he took a loss, he would carefully assess if he should do another trade or not.

He would follow the market on his phone or the computer, but no trades.

He admitted to leaving a lot of money on the table, but it worked for him. Allegedly, he had < 5 losing days per year over the last few years.

 

[Laissez Faire]

Personally, I don't think there's such a thing as overtrading per se. Either you have a valid signal or not. The more discretionary your approach - the more prone you are to making mistakes as few people are able to sustain top performance for prolonged periods of time. Especially in a stressful game like trading where you're putting your own money at risk.

That makes the case for not trading the full session.

Alternatively, scale down and just trade minimum size to satisfy your gambling urges.

 

[murray t turtle]

Right, good volatility SOXS/SOXL and GDX/DUST arbs today.... trying to bottomfish UVXY TZA here now

%%
MOST of the good moVes happen on the first 4 hour candlechart of the day[8;30 -12;30cst]
so it could make sense to limit to that time frame.
BUT that'$ an average+ who wants to be average/LOL??Good thing i cut a loss on TZA+ took profits on FANG/FNGU.
And plenty of times \last 2.5 hour candle chart/charts are a good time to get in/ longs.
Back in SDS+ tech x3 inverse.................................................................

 

[volpri]

Personally, I don't think there's such a thing as overtrading per se. Either you have a valid signal or not. The more discretionary your approach - the more prone you are to making mistakes as few people are able to sustain top performance for prolonged periods of time. Especially in a stressful game like trading where you're putting your own money at risk.

That makes the case for not trading the full session.

Alternatively, scale down and just trade minimum size to satisfy your gambling urges.

I agree there technically is not such thing as overtrading. Not if one has strategies that work at rendering profits in ALL contexts. However, for the discretionary trader mental fatigue can be the source of bad judgements that render previous profits obsolete.

There are days I can trade the entire session and not feel tired mentally. Then there are days I start off on the wrong foot, right off the bat. My mind just isn’t in sync. If I get three losses in a row I think it best to go on SIM and see if I can get myself in sync. I can always go back to real money trading. For me there is no point in throwing good money after bad. There are days, for one reason or the other, I just cannot function at top performance and cannot seem to read the market good enough to make it viable to continue trading with money on the line. Again “practice makes perfect”. All high pressure sports require continual practice to correct mistakes and refine execution. Trading is a high performance activity (at least for a discretionary trader). Can you imagine Tampa Bay Bucs saying we got Tom Brady we no longer need to practice. Brady would be the first to say hogwash!

SIM IS THE TRADERS PRACTICE FIELD TO GET IN SYNC, CORRECT MISTAKES, and REFINE EXECUTION. There is no shame in practicing on a SIM, regardless of how many years one has been trading. I regularly sharpen my skills on a SIM.

 

[murray t turtle]

Personally, I don't think there's such a thing as overtrading per se. Either you have a valid signal or not. The more discretionary your approach - the more prone you are to making mistakes as few people are able to sustain top performance for prolonged periods of time. Especially in a stressful game like trading where you're putting your own money at risk.

That makes the case for not trading the full session.

Alternatively, scale down and just trade minimum size to satisfy your gambling urges.

%%
Good points;
but overtrading includes goofing a valid signal, trading to much, trading to big for account size.
MOST of the better moves are on 1st 4 hour candle charts , stuff i trade/invest.
Proves part of your ''not trading the full session''

 

[Bad_Badness]

It is good to know yourself. Am good for 25-35 trades. At 15 trades still fresh. At 25, starting to feel the effort.

Of course today being triple witching, it was volatile all day with volume. Knowing this, removed stops and targets and went "mustang". It was easier to see and watch the price action and concentrate on that and being disciplined. Did keep a 6x normal mental stop however. Not totally crazy, just measured crazy to match the day.

Sometimes one has to make the judgment call that they will be mentally taxed heavy that day and make adjustments to their mental output by removing some efforts (tracking stops and targets). Mental overload is when mistakes happen. Also passed on about 1/3 of the trade signals. There were too many (for normal), which told me there was extra volatility and high "noise" ratio for the system

P/L low water mark and high water mark were about the same magnitude. MFE and MAE about the same on a per trade basis. Closed out at High water mark.

 

[KCalhoun]

Of 85RT today, biggest win was eod run

I did go light size midday. Sold 600sh afterhours for a tidy win. Thx