Have you had benefits from psychological work in your trading?

[Laissez Faire]

Um I am not so sure about plenty of money thing. I think more accurately, if one had an excess of say, 200-300K cash flow (profit) a year guaranteed, it would be like sim.

Once you make a bunch, the issue is cash flow-generation and capital preservation. A bad martingale loss would set one back pretty hard loosing what you have made, which is almost worse.

An old school (Pre-5 rings- Musashi), is that you need to be so proficient it is deeply burned into you mind and body, that the right thing is second nature. Of course it was hard to keep your cool with 50+ guys with swords, spears and bow-arrows on a battlefield. So trading should be easy right?

Also sometimes it is more about being right or wrong than making money. We have all been there.

Of course - plenty of money on it's own is NOT going to help. Just like psychological work can NOT replace the lack of trading skills/experience.

One of the richest men in Norway at the time who had retired after selling a tech company got bored in retirement and started day trading stocks being one the biggest single players in the stock markets at the time. Ended up losing his entire fortune and even ended up in debt.

Personally, I'm not very well funded, but my trading account is almost doubled after funding it and there's no doubt a big difference between trading from that place with a cushion of profits compared to being in deeper drawdown and a few bad trades from a margin call (been in that place, too).

 

[Laissez Faire]

The only issue I have and working on daily is trading skill or verification of an trading edge.

Most people just take the $500,000 and get busy trading with no experience. After about $300,000 in losses, the mental issues start.

Exactly. You fully get it.

Most people just want to get started trading and making $$$ quickly. Doesn't work like that.

Trading skills first. Might take a few years. Then money making being well funded. If no edge, you can choose to not trade and choose to not lose. Extremely easy. Deciding to trade in the market is a personal choice. Losing money is a personal choice. Most would be better off choosing not to trade.

But we may be drifting off-topic...

 

[Laissez Faire]

Comparing myself to a slot player helped with understanding the concept of fully accepting risk. We are gamblers...I've tried to convince myself for far too long that I wasn't.

I've also tried to convince myself that the market is a benevolent provider of wealth (in relation to your second post), an ocean of financial abundance where all one has to do is bring their bucket to the beach to withdrawal their share...I have come to the conclusion that this is not the case at all. The competition is far too fierce for it to be rainbows and sunshine. You need to be a killer to make real money IMO. The market is quite literally 100% made up of others that have the singular goal of taking your money...that does not sound like a very relaxing and generous environment to me.

Well, maybe your prior belief was true, but simply your bucket was full of holes...?

Your only requirement is to understand how price moves and then you buy low and sell high or vice versa. Exactly what is preventing you from doing that? Where is the competition?

While futures trading is a zero sum game, I don't think it's even true what you're saying about the market being made up of others that have the singular goal of taking your money. Not everyone is a day trader. A lot of the volume in for example index futures is related to hedging, arbitrage, option plays and long term traders getting in and out of the market. Each with very very different motivation and goals and where they certainly don't care much about your few lots moving in and out of the market.

 

[SimpleMeLike]

Why would anyone in that situation want to be a trader, if they have such a great life already?

Attempting trading will only reduce happiness for them.

As such people tend to discover pretty quickly.

Good Morning Millionaire,

Awesome question you asked:

It is not about having a great life, it is about having a consistent great life forever. The only way to accomplish that as man, is consistent more money happily. A back up plan to the back up the plan.

For these reasons:

1. The same reason why John D Rockafella said "Just a little bit more" when asked why you keep buying companies and you already the richest man in the world.

2. The same reason Tom Brady has not retired yet.

3. More Money. I live in America, having more money increase quality of life and solves every problem I can think of.

4. Winning overall and competitive. Winning the long game.

5. Get richer faster with as less stress as possible.

 

[SimpleMeLike]

Exactly. You fully get it.

Most people just want to get started trading and making $$$ quickly. Doesn't work like that.

Trading skills first. Might take a few years. Then money making being well funded. If no edge, you can choose to not trade and choose to not lose. Extremely easy. Deciding to trade in the market is a personal choice. Losing money is a personal choice. Most would be better off choosing not to trade.

But we may be drifting off-topic...

Hello Laissez Faire,

No sir, we are not drifting off topic.

The money is motive, and the money can be issue.

If you had triple your needed trading capital to trade successfully in your personal saving account, then you would not have any mental trading issues. ZIP, ZERO, NONE. Period.

If you are taking your last money you have in your savings account and using that to start trading, you will lose the trading game and will not be successful trading. And you will lose your happiness. Because now you have $0.00 in your personal account and can not enjoy life.

The goal is to do both. Enjoy life peacefully, AND enjoy make alot of money trading as well peacefully.

We are humans, not robots. We feel. We have families to take care of bills. We can not have all that personal stuff on our mind, AND try to conquer the markets daily.

Build trading capital and personal savings account cushion first, then trade. win-win situation.

 

[SimpleMeLike]

Of course - plenty of money on it's own is NOT going to help. Just like psychological work can NOT replace the lack of trading skills/experience.

One of the richest men in Norway at the time who had retired after selling a tech company got bored in retirement and started day trading stocks being one the biggest single players in the stock markets at the time. Ended up losing his entire fortune and even ended up in debt.

Personally, I'm not very well funded, but my trading account is almost doubled after funding it and there's no doubt a big difference between trading from that place with a cushion of profits compared to being in deeper drawdown and a few bad trades from a margin call (been in that place, too).

Hello Laissez Faire,

Great story. I can agree with it too.

Just because you have money, does not mean you can win.

And for this trader, once he loss $50,000 trading, all his mental was stuck on was "I gotta get this $50,000 back, I can do it, this is easy".

Then loss another $50k, then $200k. And it all goes down from there.

 

[Sprout]

Hello everyone,

Many years ago when I didn’t know the difference between the bid and the ask I read a few of the popular trading books on psychology. No doubt it was of little help as I didn’t know a thing or two about trading.

Now that I have a methodology and approach which seems to be working I’m a little curious on the psychological aspect.

Is there anyone here who had any benefit from reading and practicing trader psychology? Or changing your mental outlook or views in some way? By benefit I mean practical trading results, i.e., making more $$$ as a result of implementing psychology work or improving your mental state.

If you’re a newbie trading in the zone on the simulator, please don’t bother to answer.

Thank you.

It’s on-going work that increases and compounds self-awareness. Understanding one’s own unique personality and how one responds to various emotional states is supportive but needs data from experience.

Much of the trading aphorism’s need to be experienced prior to being integrated.

Focus more on a process vs attaining a goal.

Engaging in a Process provides a foundation for discipline.

Sustained discipline separates the wheat from the chaff.

The key being able to have emotions vs emotions “having” you.

 

[SimpleMeLike]

Not quite. The 30k you are paying for the car is money you are pissing away. Drive it off the lot and it has depreciated 10%. The longer you keep it the less it is worth.

Borrow money to buy stuff that apprciates or at least has a chance to appreciate. You got a home without a mortgage and you borrow to buy a car? You got investments? Sell the investments, buy the car, borrow to buy new investments. At least they have a chance of appreciating and the loan interest is deductible.

Hello deaddog,

Thanks for explaining to me.

Are you saying if I have an investment that need $50,000, I can borrow that $50,000 from the bank at about 7% interest, 10 year loan?

Then invest the $50k and over the 10 year period, I can deduct the interest on my taxes?

Then use the profits from the investment to purchase car cash??

Is that correct?

 

[deaddog]

Hello deaddog,

Thanks for explaining to me.

Are you saying if I have an investment that need $50,000, I can borrow that $50,000 from the bank at about 7% interest, 10 year loan?

Then invest the $50k and over the 10 year period, I can deduct the interest on my taxes?

Then use the profits from the investment to purchase car cash??

Is that correct?

I suppose you could do it that way. Your making assumptions that you will have a profit. Are you that good an investor.

I'm just saying you shouldn't borrow to buy depreciating assets if you can help it. Sell your investments. Buy your car then borrow to invest. Take advantage of the tax write offs.

 

[SimpleMeLike]

I suppose you could do it that way. Your making assumptions that you will have a profit. Are you that good an investor.

I'm just saying you shouldn't borrow to buy depreciating assets if you can help it. Sell your investments. Buy your car then borrow to invest. Take advantage of the tax write offs.

Hello deaddog,

Yes, I understand what you are saying.

Both the investments will have to return a profit for this situation to work out, agree?