Handling Skepticism from Loved Ones

[Lobster]

The rate at which this thread is growing deems to indicate that this is a very common problem among traders. I have lived through most of this with my father, and I have not found a solution to the situation yet.

The one thing I would like to contribute to this thread is:

At first I thought a couple of weeks would be enough to determine whether I could day trade successfully, then I started day trading, and after a couple of months I still didn't know, but I thought, surely a year will be sufficient to see whether or not I can succeed.

Well, it has been just over two years now, and I now believe the probability that I will eventually succeed to be somewhere near 70%. I have not yet made X amount of $ per month, but I have gone from -X to 0.01 X to 0.1 X to 0.3 X fairly consistently, so who is to say I won't be making 3 X next year?

My best advice is, give it time, and make sure you have some sort of significant or almost significant income from other sources. This point is important for another reason beside the obvious: This will prove to yourself (and maybe even to others) that you are not going into trading merely as an escape from the challanges of regular life.

By the way, I also believe you might be the kind of person (like myself) who cannot just "ignore" the nay-sayers. This might make it more difficult for you to be successful, but it doesn't necessarily worsen your chances of success. You just happen to be one of those who have to overcome some additional difficulty. It might delay you, but I don't think it will stop you. In my case, this obstacle takes the following form:

Every once in a while, my father sends me an e-mail or calls me and tells me (mostly indirectly) how disappointed he is in me, that I should be a scientist or at least work for a big company like IBM; instead, I be wasting my time trying to win a game that can't be won. Many times after such a conversation Iget into the mind set "To prove him wrong I WILL make at least $200 net profit TODAY. If I can do this every day, I can make a living, and I will have won the game." Somehow, this attitude causes me to fail in cutting my losses early enough, and I usually end such a day in the red. I would guess this whole phenomenon currently "costs" me approximately 50% of my net profit. That's down from approximately 120% a year ago. If anyone knows a quick fix for my problem, I would be most grateful. But if there is none, I am fairly confident I'll make it the hard way. And if I succeed, I will have learned more than I would have if I had had the ability to simply ignore my father's opinion. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Scientist]

Quote from alfonso:

Let's see.

You:

1 Think that "having access to leverage" is equivalent to "being capitalized".
....

Extremely well said here by Alfonso! I agree in all points.

OK, learninglisted, let me just ask this here : Do You respect your FIL and do you understand his point?

Well, you should, because he is damn right. Or let's just say, chances are 97% that he is right and 3% that you are right.

These aren't exactly great odds for you.

If you want to start trading successfully, that is for a living, you're opening yourself a giant can of worms. Think you can make money as an occassional or part-time trader? Sure. Who couldn't. Think you can do the same when your whole future depends on it, too? Quite possibly not. Psychology is what makes the main difference in this process.

This is why I have to warn you : Listen to what Alfonso said : It's all about your attitude. If you want to trade, you can't just be somebody who wants to "do something". You've got to have all of the 5D's in one: Dream, Determination, Drive, Data, Dollars.

You cannot afford to be doubtful. If you're asking us about your situation and your FIL etc - You're in doubt.

GAME OVER.

You cannot even start doing this until you've removed all doubt that you will succeed. Before that, you shouldn't take any step like this. You must be 100% confident that you will win.

I know this sounds hard, but this is a conviction thing, a psychological impact thing. You must have enough of a psychological cushion to deal with losses, drawdowns etc without them shadowing your determination / drive at all. If you hesitate, you'll die. You cannot act supremely on a battlefield without supreme confidence. Any Marine will tell you that. You must have 100% confidence that you can perform under fire. With bullets whistling past your ears all day, you better should. The occassional flesh wound shouldn't stop you from moving forward. Hesitate or pity yourself, and the next bullet is in your head. Sounds cruel, but please realize the harsh reality of day trading. Not only will you be under fire, but You'll be crawling through minefields all day long. You better know the map really well before you start hopping around there looking for targets, or you'll lose an arm one day and a leg the next.

One example were those pivot point rules etc that I recently explained to you. You had little idea about pivots. You're literally running through a minefield without that knowledge. That's only one of many things. Remember, you want to be ahead of the crowd, not even with it or behind it! You really need to be much better than the crowd, because your commission structure is terrible! You aren't exactly privileged like a registered MM getting rebates etc or an exchange seat owner!

Now, what is your methodology? Can you define it? What indicators do you use? Can you quote their formulae? What are your convictions? Do you think you can severely outperform?

You should go and do an NLP course to learn about modelling etc, in order to get the achiever-mindset necessary in order to peform exceptionally and without doubt.

Make sure you get this clear before you start: You are the one and only master of your destiny. If you fail, it's because you're a failure. Because You lack discipline. If you blame the other players, the market, the broker, the platform, anything, you're a loser and deserve to die by the sword. Period. You have no excuse. If you're able to accept 100% responsibility for your outcome, you're already halfway there. If you don't, you're already doomed. Everything, good or bad, is your own fault only.

Now that you know there's no excuse, you better make sure you do the right thing.

Once you have the achiever-mindset, and the last points well understood, you will automatically stop whining about your FIL and instead play your game the way you want to.

Insecurity, Doubt = FAILURE. Don't do it. Be prepared.


Now, learninglisted, if you really want to pursue this endeavour, make sure the following points are fulfilled:

1. You know your risks, you understand and acknowledge your 97% probability of failure.

2. You have set X$ aside to trade with, which is money you can afford to lose. All of it.

3. You have alternative income at least for the first few years. I still have another part-time business. I don't care if some traders here say you can't do full-time trading and do another job as well. They're FOS. I make more money than them, and in 2 businesses that is. Don't listen to crap!

The reason for this is more psychological than financial. It's about knowing that you have a "back-up", so you don't trade with fear or "need to score to live". Remember, you're playing a game. If it becomes anymore serious than a game to you, you'll lose. Read "Market Wizards" regarding this.

4. You should have money to live. Ideally backup for >1 year living. I'd say with a family, maybe $3k /month = $36K/year. You need a minimum of $36K to live off.

5. Money to trade / capital. Referring to point 2. You need $50-75K, better 75-100K. Of that, you put max. $30K into your trading account. If trading futures, $5-10K. You shouldn't start off with futures, though.

I know some people might say that $25K is enough to trade. Screw them. Yeah sure I can make a "living" on 25K, but can you - yet? Probably not.

6. You now need a minimum of $50K + $36K = $86K to live for a while and (hopefully) get started. Do you have that? If not, don't do it. Get a job to accumulate money until you do. Do something that gives you no time or opportunity to spend money. In Australia, those jobs would include working on a boat, working on an oil rig, working on a minesite, driving trucks or the like. All well-paid and cheap-stay. I'm sure there's similar stuff where you live.

7. Get really well educated. You should already know most of what you need to know about trading in a technical sense. You want to focus on psychology and strategies now, rather than how to calculate an EMA or interpret simple patterns.

8. Get yourself sorted. Achiever mindset. Winning approach / system. Become a winner BEFORE you start, or you've already lost. I know this sounds repetitive, but if to stress any point, it's really this one. As Dr. Van Tharp said in "Market Wizards", a trademark of top-traders is that they have already won the game before they start!

9. Once all these points are fulfilled, only then do you have a chance to survive and succeed. At this point, You shouldn't worry about comments from your FIL anymore, either. You will discover a new sense of freedom. Freedom to go your own way.

10. No "Good Luck" wishes. You shouldn't need it now.


I hope all this enlightened you in some small way.
It's all up to you now. Make the best of it!


All the best for your journey, I wish you well.
~The Scientist



P.S: Regarding motivation, maybe you should read this thread, regarding some of my own life maxims etc; http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20606&perpage=6&pagenumber=1

 

[Scientist]

Quote from Lobster:

The rate at which this thread is growing deems to indicate that this is a very common problem among traders. I have lived through most of this with my father, and I have not found a solution to the situation yet.

Forget it. Nor have I. It's a bitch, but you just have to learn to live with it. My dad encourages me, but at the same time keeps doubting my ongoing success. He doesn't want to accept it. He's worried, and that's understandable, given the general facts.

And if I succeed, I will have learned more than I would have if I had had the ability to simply ignore my father's opinion. Wouldn't you agree?

What does "If I succeed" mean? At what point do you prove something to your dad? I'm not on the street, live in a fine place, drive a fine car, and my dad still says I "could blow up any day". It's just the way it is, I've shown him smooth equity curves etc - It doesn't matter. I don't tell him anymore, I've given it up. Remember that most ppl out there have been burnt by i.e. the stockmarket sometime in their lives. They project that as a general rule. Nothing you can do.

When my dad asks me these days if I'm doing well or making money, I just say : "Yeah. Sure. How much? Can't tell you that. Sorry". Best to just not start talking about it.

Remember, it took ourselves quite a while to figure out that money can actually be made by non-professionals on the market. Most people never figure it out, including most wannabe-traders. Why should our parents, for chrissake?

It's all OK. Leave them to their right to worry. We'll survive.


~Scientist

 

[cashonly]

Quote from Lobster:

If anyone knows a quick fix for my problem, I would be most grateful.

Here's a quick fix...

Next e-mail you get from him about you being a disappointment, send him a link to your post on this thread. Include a note telling him that as you cannot get support from your own father you feel the need to go out to a bunch of anonymous strangers in cyberspace as these strangers provide you the support that you need and that you should be getting from him.


At least maybe it'll open his eyes or start a dialogue.

 

[Tea]

Quote from Lobster:


Every once in a while, my father sends me an e-mail or calls me and tells me (mostly indirectly) how disappointed he is in me, that I should be a scientist or at least work for a big company like IBM; instead, I be wasting my time trying to win a game that can't be won. Many times after such a conversation Iget into the mind set "To prove him wrong I WILL make at least $200 net profit TODAY. If I can do this every day, I can make a living, and I will have won the game." Somehow, this attitude causes me to fail in cutting my losses early enough, and I usually end such a day in the red. I would guess this whole phenomenon currently "costs" me approximately 50% of my net profit. That's down from approximately 120% a year ago. If anyone knows a quick fix for my problem, I would be most grateful. But if there is none, I am fairly confident I'll make it the hard way. And if I succeed, I will have learned more than I would have if I had had the ability to simply ignore my father's opinion. Wouldn't you agree?

Its amazing how some parents will sabotage their children with a never ending stream of criticism. It’s a trait that is handed down from generation to generation like child abuse. People who don’t grow up like this have no idea what a monkey it can be on your back.

The only way I know how to handle it is just to refuse to accept it anymore even if it means not having contact with that parent. You can start by telling him you don’t want to talk with him about the market or your trading anymore. Of course he will ignore you and slip in criticism of your trading when you have your guard down. At that point you have to say – I asked you not to talk about trading with me - so for the next month I won’t be returning your calls or emails. Sorry, but you are trying to undercut me from doing something I love.

When you engage in revenge trading as in “to prove him wrong”, you are letting your father play you. You are reacting to his initiative. Instead you need to change the game.

It’s not a pleasant experience, but after a while he will realize if he wants to have a relationship with you he will have to respect your wishes.

Of course everyone will say that you have become a bad son, how could you do this to dear old dad. But, if you realize that this is a form of child abuse and if you don’t do something to change things – you are going to inherit this trait and become the abuser to your children.

Change the game, break the cycle, take the initiative.

 

[RAMOUTAR]

Get the full understanding and backing from your wife, she's the most important in the whole equation.

 

[Lobster]

Quote from Scientist:

What does "If I succeed" mean? At what point do you prove something to your dad?

Good point about success in general. What I meant in this particular case, was if I ever get to the point where I can take those comments from my father, and while they may still bother me, they will not influence my trading anymore. I feel I am getting there, but it is very difficult.

The way I currently handle the situation is, I don't trade at all, sometimes for days, every time I find myself thinking about his last comment. That way, I avoid those huge losses. But since I think about his comments about half the time, I am losing out on 50% of potential profits.

Now if I can lower the time it takes my mind to process and/or block his interference to only a few minutes, then this whole problem would have no significant effect on my trading. That would be success how I meant it in this case.

 

[Lobster]

Quote from Tea:


Change the game, break the cycle, take the initiative.

I should really do that. I don't have children, but I sometimes find myself excessively criticizing other people. While it probably won't hurt them as much as it would if it came from a parent, it might not be too positive an influence on their lives.

 

[imc]

Tell your father-inlaw that if he cant say anything positive and supportive about your trading then he should shut his mouth- period.

Success is in the trying, failure is never to have tried.

 

[learninglisted]

Quote from Scientist:

This is why I have to warn you : Listen to what Alfonso said : It's all about your attitude. If you want to trade, you can't just be somebody who wants to "do something". You've got to have all of the 5D's in one: Dream, Determination, Drive, Data, Dollars.

You cannot afford to be doubtful. If you're asking us about your situation and your FIL etc - You're in doubt.

GAME OVER.

So let me get this straight: I am destined to fail as a trader because I started a thread about handling skepticism from loved ones? This in itself reveals an insurmountable psychological defect, the daytrader's Achilles Heel? Admitting that a loved one's skepticism is painful emotionally translates to inevitable doom?

One example were those pivot point rules etc that I recently explained to you. You had little idea about pivots. You're literally running through a minefield without that knowledge.

So since pivots were not in my trading database, that database is automatically as bare as a baby's bottom? I now don't have any strategy? I'm walking blind without a cane, pal?

Make sure you get this clear before you start: You are the one and only master of your destiny. If you fail, it's because you're a failure. Because You lack discipline. If you blame the other players, the market, the broker, the platform, anything, you're a loser and deserve to die by the sword. Period. You have no excuse. If you're able to accept 100% responsibility for your outcome, you're already halfway there. If you don't, you're already doomed. Everything, good or bad, is your own fault only.

Once you have the achiever-mindset, and the last points well understood, you will automatically stop whining about your FIL and instead play your game the way you want to.

When have I blamed my FIL, the market, the other players, my platform, anything? I'll tell you: NEVER. I completely take responsibility for my actions.

You're making some sweeping assumptions here, Scientist, along with Alfonso.

Look, my FIL's statement hurt, I started a thread to see if others had experienced the same thing and how they handled it. That does not mean I'm writhing on the floor crying uncontrollably, or that I sit at my keyboard, fingers shaking, tears dripping onto my hot keys, hesitating at executing a trade because I see my FIL's face staring at me from the monitor screaming "You're going to FAIL! I am God and I know!"

Apparently you view admitting emotional pain to be "whining." If that is indeed your outlook on things, you must have Vulcan ears and the emotional detachment of a T-1000.

Actually, your whole view of the market being a bloody battlefield with mines everywhere and corpses strewn all over is the opposite of how I have come to view it. I don't see the point of trying to battle the market; it's going to do what it's going to do, so why get tremendously agitated seeing it as a bloody conflict? Instead I try to simply go with the market and avoid letting euphoria and disappointment affect my trading.

I'm glad I started this thread as the subject apparently resonates with a lot of traders. As for myself, just let me say that I'M OVER IT.