And God in His wisdom has given all his sheep a different interpretation.
Yeah, it's very important to interpret the Bible correctly!
Cool trick.
God is...
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Cool trick.
"So, only ~5 billion people are destined to spend eternity in Hell after death through no fault of their own."https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/god-is.359932/page-63#post-5523798
At 00:51, the video has
That says God does what he feels like, and anyone who questions that has a problem. So, only ~5 billion people are destined to spend eternity in Hell after death through no fault of their own.
I guess God could do something to tell all humans his word, so they would voluntarily worship him, but he must have better things to do.
I had been thinking about going into greater depth on this topic in the near future, even before you wrote this.
For a quick reply though, it hangs on a few things.
It is incorrect to say people are destined to spend eternity in Hell through no fault of their own.
Are people predestined to hell? I do not believe they are. I do not think it is correct to think that God chooses some to go to hell. It is debated amongst believers, however.
People will go to hell because they are guilty. So, it is incorrect to say they are sent to hell through no fault of their own.
What is probably a different way to word the same argument would be to ask why a loving God would continue to allow fallen creatures to reproduce since they continue in sins and will be judged for all sins and then sent to hell, unless saved by His plan of salvation. Along these lines of thought comes another question, "Why doesn't God make salvation much more plain, giving everyone a fair chance to hear and repent?"
I actually do struggle with this some. I know that God is completely righteous, good and fair. He also, as our Creator, does have the right to have authority over us, to command us to obey Him.
One of my responses to those two questions is that I will simply have to trust His judgment in this, that His character has not changed, that He is always good in all that He does. Also, He does not owe me an explanation and is not accountable to me. However, if God wants my genuine worship and love, then I need to be able to trust that He is fully worthy of this, meaning that I cannot praise Him for being good if I do not believe that He is truly good, etc.
So, it is important, I think, to know the answers that are revealed in the Bible. In an issue as big as this, I don't want to be looking at what my own emotions or feeling dictate, but want to stick as closely to the truth of God's Word. Here are some thoughts:
God let mankind choose to go from Him. It was God that set up the test of obedience in the Garden of Eden, and simply because Adam and Eve chose to go there own way does not mean that God is obligated to now stop the human race from the consequences of their choice.
I also suspect that there is a lot more going on in the life that is passed on from the parents to a child, so that, since there has been an unbroken passing on of life from present day people to Adam and Eve, in God's sight, it is right for us to bear their fallen state. Does this mean that God sees each of us as Adam and Eve in different bodies? At this point I am only speculating, and there's not a whole lot in the Bible. But it would make a lot more sense if God sees us that way, so that in His mind, we are born as fallen creatures.
From what I understand of God's character from other places in Scripture, it does not make any sense to me that He would think it is good for fallen creatures to be created as completely new beings, created by Him. God creates what is good, not evil. So, I find comfort in thinking that it is wrong to think that God is creating innocent babies and children who suffer, but instead, these babies have had their memories wiped clean, so to speak, yet their lives have been passed down for thousands of years tracing all the way back through all the evil in human history, to Adam and Eve who were created good, but chose to rebel against God.
Not sure if anyone else sees this the way I do. It is a difficult subject, especially because I know that I am just as deserving of hell as everyone else.
We don't know, what we don't know. And this ties into what I touched upon earlier.
The Bible notes God knowing humans before they were born. Since we have no evidence that humans can remember a time before birth, we can conclude that such a memory would be erased/blocked/etc.
If that's possible/happening, then it's possible/happening that any actions/inactions performed pre-birth could result in judgment, regardless of what subsequently happens after birth. This would appear to be 'pre-destined,' but the judgment is actually based on pre-birth activities.
Point one: we don't, and can't know for certain.
Point two: I trust that God is fair, even if I can't understand the math, logic, thoughts, ways, nor technology, he uses.
"These examples show the Bible has multiple interpretations. It seems anyone can interpret the Bible to suit their views. To me, that makes it a not-so-reliable historical document."
There are some difficult passages, and teachings, in the Bible. I might also be guilty of imposing my views on interpreting the Bible in certain areas. However, the Bible covers numerous topics and the things that are the most important are stated and restated over and over, so that there isn't a whole lot of room for misinterpreting. How many times does the Bible say that whoever believes in Jesus will have everlasting life, or some variation of that? It's a lot. That is the most important thing.
"To me, that makes it a not-so-reliable historical document."
This would only make sense if what is in the Bible is inaccurate. For example, in the passages in 3 of the gospels that talk about this, Jesus is saying that some of His disciples would not die until they had seen "the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom" "till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." "there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."
There are different possibilities for fulfilling exactly what Jesus meant what He said it. That I don't quite know what Jesus meant, does not mean that Jesus didn't speak the truth.
Consider this, if indeed the Transfiguration of Jesus took place and the disciples really did see Jesus in His glory, and if the resurrection really did take place and they saw Him in a new body, alive, after having died, and if Pentecost happened shortly afterwards, where the Holy Spirit came on rested on each of them, visibly, as tongues of fire, and special signs accompanied this event, then having experienced all of those things, you would no longer throw away what Jesus had said, even if perhaps something wasn't entirely clear to you.
Jesus even told his disciples that it wasn't for them to understand the timetable.
As far as interpreting the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD to be the coming of Jesus, as the commentary you quoted from describes, I do not believe that this was Jesus coming. I do believe it was predicted by Jesus. Luke 21:20-24:
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
I see a large time gap between vs 24 and the following verses because the following verses align with verses in Matthew 24:29-30. Yet the preceding verses in Matthew 24 speak of the abomination spoken of by Daniel, defiling the Holy Place, as well as other details, that in other scriptures point to a still future event. Take a look at the differences in two passages. Similar, yet different events, and I believe this one is likely very close at hand (end of the Tribulation period of 7 years, so it will be a few more years at least). I believe that the verse 30 is the 2nd coming of Jesus (this is different than the rapture because the rapture Jesus doesn't actually come to the earth, He comes to the clouds and takes His church up to heaven.)
Matthew 24:
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Not sure I made my point very clear.4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
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If you get someone and brand them guilty because they were born that way, then they are guilty and deserve punishment?
Oh but you say, if they accept Jesus their sin is wiped away and no longer guilty.
Why should I accept the promises of con artist humans (missionaries) who try to sell me that story?
Con artist missionaries do not have authority to tell other humans they are guilty.
We can't brand anyone as guilty. Our opinions are irrelevant in that regard. It's silly to debate about our opinions as to who is, or isn't guilty. It's also commanded that we not do so.
Wrong. If they accept certain facts about Jesus. Again, we don't, and can't determine when another has accepted these facts, regardless what they claim. Only God knows the heart.
You shouldn't accept the promises of con artist humans.
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Well you and your church do.
Although we are born in a fallen state, the Bible does make it clear in several places that God's judgment will be based on what we did/thought. People will be judged with a righteous standard for their own sins.
Once again. I only speak for myself. If you have evidence of what my church is doing, show it! Otherwise, you reveal yourself to be a lying clown. ... again. Especially since you know nothing about my church.
No. You are leaving out that there are many reasons to accept the Bible as reliable. The first point in this is to recognize that the Old Testament in Jesus time can be relied on to be the same as what we have today.
I can explain the whole way of salvation strictly from Old Testament verses.
This is something that needs to be given attention to, because this was not made up by one person, or many people, but orchestrated by God in a way that humans could have never come up with.
Can you think of another book that compares to the Bible in it's spread across time and authors and yet has a unifying and uncontradictory message?
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