Getting down and dirty is where the rubber meets the road ...

[jack hershey]

Quote from dkm:

To identify the trading fractal FTT it is necessary to know that one is drawing correctly the three faster fractals (dom, non-dom, dom), so that one can know that one is travelling from pt3 to FTT. This clearly requires the correct grouping of bars in accordance with a convention that uses the 9 cases. Although we treat internals as “one bar”, some guidance, with examples, would be welcome for how to handle sequential internals. E.g. the bars following 10:50 and 12:25

And a couple of questions:

Q1. On the attached chart, are the thick dashed containers “faster fractals” or “trading fractals”?

Q2. Having identified the FTT at 15:10 I was expecting a long container, but the 15:40 bar (labelled “oops”) went lower than my p1. Would this have been a case of simply reversing to get on the correct side (with a small loss) or was there something to suggest that 15:10 was not an FTT?

Hi David,

I started through your chart so I could move to where you are and deal with your questions.

So here is the beginning of my stepping into a role of doing my best to consider where you are coming from, find that place and move forward to assist you in making more progress on your present base of understanding.

I attached my beginning since I was puzzled about the "carryover" you did. I moved the display to the right and degapped the open.

Then I projected the RTL you drew to the left to find out how far back the Green would be drawn (if at all) to get a handle on how the fractals were being built from the fastest to the slowest. In this k200 thread we call the three fractals : fast, trading and slow going from inside to outside of the nesting in a 3 to 1 ratio of moves (P, V moves).

So I coluld not ID three levels of fractals. I think you show fast fractals and trading fractal and you do not show the slow fractal.

I tried to explain that anntating 10 days of nested fractals can straighten out the "nested relationship of any trading instrument. If that happened, then it would be possible to accurately do carryover and do it on all three involved nested fractals.

Anyway, your chart does not do that and as a consequence there is no carryover and no beginning point immediately available.

as an alternative I will do the following:

1. Correct your method of annotating.

2. Answer your questions in the context of correct annotating, and

3. Ask you to continue from that point and ask me further questions.

I will post specific illustrations of your mistakes and how each is remedied to begin.

 

[jack hershey]

Here is an annotating suggestion for doing it correctly. There is a simple drill at the end.

About 1957 while reading Magee 4th Ed I found that parallelograms depicted fractal containers. three points were involved: two on the right and one on the left. This pragmatic consideration set my life in motion. I did parallelograms as suggested. I knew for some reason to follow instructions. the principle was this: by following instructions and doing it hapily, I enjoyed getting what I was to do correct and I avoided unneccesary complications.

I always drink out of the near side of the glass as well. Again, the reasoning is simple; I get my thirst quenched by not having to take off my shirt during thirst quenching.

Sometimes I run into vertically oriented people (See THINK, IBM Journal 1950's on personal orientation theory). To ease them into the right and left trend line orientation I do a drilll with them called ruler sliding on stock charts.

The rule is placed on the RIGHT side of the chart in their favorite...a vertical orientation.

slowly the ruler is slide to the left to introduce them to left and rightness.

I ask them to stop the ruler when it hits ant price.

this happens very soon.

I ask them to place a pencil at that point of price contact.

then I ask them to get forceful

I ask them to be pushy.

I ask them to p[ush the ruler so it moves more to the left and still keeps contact with the ruler.

they, in fact begin to rotate the ruler about the pencil that is holding one part of the ruler in place.

I ask them to stop this action when the next price it hit or touched.

they often do after some adjusting for overshooting.

Then I ask them to hold the ruler in place and drag the pencil from the point it is at to the other price contact point.

then I ask them to set aside the pencil and ruler and look at the RIGHT TREND LINE FOR 1 HOUR WITHOUT BLINKING.

 

[jack hershey]

here is the fast fractal carryover

 

[dkm]

Quote from jack hershey:

Here is an annotating suggestion for doing it correctly. There is a simple drill at the end.

[ing] [/img]

Thanks for the comments Jack. My platform (Ninjatrader) did draw the yellow areas for internals but I have updated to beta version 7 and that feature is not yet available. I expect to have it soon.

I always begin by drawing my rtl first and then cloning to form the ltl. See attached chart for bar 1

 

[jack hershey]

Here we look at the first four bars of the day.

 

[jack hershey]

So I would say that the carryover was a non dom black as a move 2 followed by a dom move red to the FTT on bar 10.

then you had dom, non dom, dom fast fratal moves to complete a black (long ) trading fractal with and FTT on bar 19.

So two trades are in on the trading fractal level by bar 19.

them you ride on down to the FTT you show on bar 42. This trading fractal trade is many bars longer than the first two since it goes through midday. Now we are half way through the day.

A long trade follows as you show.

the later short is intersting since there is an FTT followed by a NEW FTT.

By drawing the bookmark green from the FTT to its cancellation you have set up getting to the NEW FTT which, in turn for the same reasons is followed by another NEW NEW FTT.

getting the outer slow fractal in place is beginning to show up by the end of the day. It gets carried over as do the exisitng trading fractals and fast fractals.

 

[jack hershey]

Quote from dkm:

To identify the trading fractal FTT it is necessary to know that one is drawing correctly the three faster fractals (dom, non-dom, dom), so that one can know that one is travelling from pt3 to FTT. This clearly requires the correct grouping of bars in accordance with a convention that uses the 9 cases. Although we treat internals as “one bar”, some guidance, with examples, would be welcome for how to handle sequential internals. E.g. the bars following 10:50 and 12:25

And a couple of questions:

Q1. On the attached chart, are the thick dashed containers “faster fractals” or “trading fractals”?


the chart you posted shows trading fractals as the slowest fractals. Within those are fast fractals.

since you begin the day by not degapping and you draw fast fractal ltl's first and rtl's second the day gets off toa lousy MADA process with no carry over of the faat, trading nor the slow fractals. This is risky business.

Q2. Having identified the FTT at 15:10 I was expecting a long container, but the 15:40 bar (labelled “oops”) went lower than my p1. Would this have been a case of simply reversing to get on the correct side (with a small loss) or was there something to suggest that 15:10 was not an FTT?

Because you have several personal inventions for annotating; you have a fractal jumping probelm to worry about. Most traders of SCT do not do drawdown or take any losses. Those two things are done in CW and OODA trading which the majority put up with.

As you see after the FTT you chose to annotate by jumping fractals to a sub fractal of the fast fractal. So you saw a short in a long on the fast fractal. you failed to extend the rtl from the FTT as the bars kept forming. Why? You invented not annotating complete moves for some reason you chose.

When a person starts SCT he remains there in beginner only a few months and moves up to a higher level of trading. So far you do not have a separate pane for annotating volume moves along side the price moves. When you begin this process you will reconsider some of the inventions you use for annotating price

 

[Ezzy]

Quote from jack hershey:


as an alternative I will do the following:

1. Correct your method of annotating.

2. Answer your questions in the context of correct annotating, and

3. Ask you to continue from that point and ask me further questions.

I will post specific illustrations of your mistakes and how each is remedied to begin.

I know Dkm has been annotating using the RTL for years so 100 more isn't going to fix this. Obviously you see an error here, but I'm not so sure it's readily apparent or been corrected.

Please see the attached, one clip from the 7 cases and one from an older taping pic. There are 2 ways shown to tape to an OB.

You question why he taped long and not short. Well lets go there and look at 3 possibilities:

1. There was a concept introduced some time back that suggested we should not tape long if the OB closed down. In this case, it closed up so a tape long was in order. In the pic I added a tape down for for this example (2nd one).

Maybe that isn't correct or there is something else going on here.

2. Because there was a pennant before the OB, and the formation is considered as one bar, there should have been a long tape from the 1st bar of the pennant to the OB. (1st edited example in the pic)

3. Wait for the 3rd bar and draw from the OB as suggested in the 7 cases.

So which would be the proper way to annotate this situation? I believe it's #2. Would that be correct?

 

[dkm]

Ten cases attached. (courtesy of Spydertrader). Of particular interest is how to annotate to an outside bar. It seems that we can connect the lows and clone to the high of the outside bar, or connect the highs and clone to the low of the outside bar.

 

[dkm]

Thanks for your comments Jack. No I am not long biased. I am simply trying to annotate in a consistent, logical and unambiguous way but, as yet, not succeeding. No short or long positions being taken at present. I fully understand the importance of drawing the RTL first. Part of the problem lies in how to draw an RTL when an outside bar is involved.

Please see attached clip for how I have addressed the carry over.

Bar 3 on 4/30 closed higher than bar 2 so I chose to connect the highs and clone to the low of the outside bar. If we treat bar 1 and bar 2 as one bar (since bar 2 is a sym) then bar 3 has a HH and HL compared to bar 1 so we connect the low of bar 1 to the low of bar 3 (the RTL) and clone this RTL. The result is still a long tape.

Bar 4 is a sym so I treat bar 3 and bar 4 as one bar. I connect the high of bar 3 to the high of bar 5 to form my RTL and clone to the low of bar 3 or 5? (both shown on attached clip). Either way, we get a VE on bar 7 so I connect the high of bar 6 to the high of bar 7 to form my RTL and clone to the low of bar 7 to get my LTL.