I was hoping you'd have something constructive to say regarding my comments on Germany either agreeing to the Eurobond or leaving the EU.
Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations
- Thread starter JamesL
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Same could be said for China, who has dominated the Eastern world for centuries (millenniums even?). Was relegated to the bottom of Asia for the past couple of centuries.
There is nothing constructive to say. Germany will never agree to a euro bond nor any productive country in europe in their right mind. You are basically suggesting a socialist or outright communist model. Why should those who choose to be productive be punished for their labor? And those who choose to be unproductive get freebies? Greeks have not been productive fir centuries long time before any bailout or austerity measure. If they had a functioning economy they would not suffer from any euro currency exchange rates whatsoever. It is choices that human beings make. When will this become apparent to you?
The job of the Dutch and Belgians and Germans is not to feed the Greeks. That was never agreed on nor in the cards.
And should it ever get to that then I am absolutely certain that Germans will wish to exit the EU. Make no mistake, Germany has done fantastically well with a strong Deutsche Mark before and it will continue to do well with whatever currency strength they night face.
You are barking up the wrong tree my friend.
The job of the Dutch and Belgians and Germans is not to feed the Greeks. That was never agreed on nor in the cards.
And should it ever get to that then I am absolutely certain that Germans will wish to exit the EU. Make no mistake, Germany has done fantastically well with a strong Deutsche Mark before and it will continue to do well with whatever currency strength they night face.
You are barking up the wrong tree my friend.
Well then, let's assume you are right and Germany will never agree to a Eurobond, and that they will do just fine on their own with a strong Deutschmark. Does it make sense for Germany to continue to be annoyed by these laggard countries? I would think not! Why continue the charade? Let their be an amicable divorce. Why not solve this Greek crisis, and the certain to arise future crises among the PIGS, by letting the other EU countries agree to a Eurobond accompanied by Germany's exit from the EU. Then everyone goes away happy. Its a win-win situation raised to the power of 26-1. (Is it 26 countries now in the EU??)
Sometimes the obvious solutions to our problems are right in front of us, yet we are blind to them. Why is that?
Volpunter, if you don't mind, could you please nominate me for the Nobel Peace Prize. I could use the money.
Also consider Greece already did have a staggering $100bln relief on their debt in 2010, when they promised all kinds of reforms. Yet here we are 5 years later with the same inefficient public administration and they're asking for another $100bln debt relief. They will once again make all kinds of promises and ask for another round of debt relief in 5 years.
Let's not forget post WW2 Germany transferred a total of €70bln (in 2012 Euros) to Israel as part of Holocaust reparations 1945-2012. Plus repaying all Marshallplan debt to the victor countries. How Piketty can compare Greece to post WW2 Germany is beyond me.
Haha sure, just who will underwrite this Eurobond of yours ? Without Germany who is gonna be paying indirectly via Eurobond? And please do not put it as if only Germany opposes a Eurobond. All of Northern Europe is against it because it basically creates maniac out of control welfare states.
Well then, let's assume you are right and Germany will never agree to a Eurobond, and that they will do just fine on their own with a strong Deutschmark. Does it make sense for Germany to continue to be annoyed by these laggard countries? I would think not! Why continue the charade? Let their be an amicable divorce. Why not solve this Greek crisis, and the certain to arise future crises among the PIGS, by letting the other EU countries agree to a Eurobond accompanied by Germany's exit from the EU. Then everyone goes away happy. Its a win-win situation raised to the power of 26-1. (Is it 26 countries now in the EU??)
Sometimes the obvious solutions to our problems are right in front of us, yet we are blind to them. Why is that?
Volpunter, if you don't mind, could you please nominate me for the Nobel Peace Prize. I could use the money.
I think France would go along. But it really doesn't matter. We just collect those Sovereign States together that want a common central bank, a common currency, and a common bond; a real fiscal, as well as trade union, and collect our Nobel Peace Prize. (I am willing to share it: 60% mine, 30% yours, for pointing out that Germany doesn't need these laggards anyway.) The ones that don't want a common bond are free to do as they please. (Personally if I was a PIGS State, I'd have nothing to do with the pickpocket States -- We all know which ones they are. I'd leave them for Germany.)
You don't need any other underwriter than "the full faith and credit" of the treasuries of the various States, which of necessity would work hand in glove with their common Central Bank. Goldman Sachs will hawk these bonds to the Saudis, and wealthy Germans, and if the interest rate is too high the central bank will step in as a buyer and force down the interest rate.This will devalue the common currency, boosting internal production, exports and the tourist industry and create thousands of new jobs...Assets will become cheap and capital will start to flow into, instead of out of, these countries.
(Get working on your acceptance speech. I've got mine ready.)
You don't need any other underwriter than "the full faith and credit" of the treasuries of the various States, which of necessity would work hand in glove with their common Central Bank. Goldman Sachs will hawk these bonds to the Saudis, and wealthy Germans, and if the interest rate is too high the central bank will step in as a buyer and force down the interest rate.This will devalue the common currency, boosting internal production, exports and the tourist industry and create thousands of new jobs...Assets will become cheap and capital will start to flow into, instead of out of, these countries.
(Get working on your acceptance speech. I've got mine ready.)
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The best starting point is to lay out the facts. Let's clearly outline the exact figures on the reparation debt that Germany has paid related to WW1 and WW2.
The most complete source for German war reparation for WWI is "FINANCIAL VERGANGENHEITSBEWÄLTIGUNG: THE 1953 LONDON DEBT AGREEMENT" by Yale economist Timothy W. Guinnane.
Let's start with the facts related to the debt from WW1.
- As per the London Schedule of Payments (1921), Germany was required to pay 132 billion (gold) Marks to other nations.
- By 1932, Germany paid about 22.89 billion deutschemarks in WW1 reparations, before the Nazi government defaulted the debt in its entirety. The 1953 London Agreement also specifically excluded any war reparations of WW1 (Article 5 of the Agreement).
- The Agreement on German External Debts (London, 27/2/1953) settled the bond money Germany actively borrowed before WWII (Article 4 of the Agreement). Some of these funds were borrowed to pay for reparations.
- Article 7 of Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany (two plus four) in 1990 renounced France, UK and U.S. claims to WWI reparation.
- After WW2 countries filed $320 billion deutschemarks in recognized reparation claims.
- Between 1947 to 1951, countries agreed to curtail some claims in order to receive U.S. aide under the Marshall plan. Many countries recognized getting something from the U.S. rather than nothing from Germany was a better economic reconstruction choice. Over four years, the US pumped $13bn into Europe (the equivalent of more than $150bn today). Germany took $1.4bn (11% of the Marshall plan total).
- The German reparation payment figure after reductions was 16.2 billion at the start of 1952.
- At the London conference on German External Debts, starting in 1952, Germany's post-war debts were written down to just under 7 billion deutschemarks from 16.2 billion deutschemarks, whilst its pre-war bond debts were reduced to 7.3 billion deutschemarks.
In total Germany repaid 22.89 billion of 132 billion in WW1 reparation - a mere 17.34% of what was owed. Of the WW2 reparation claims, only 7 billion of the 320 billion total was paid - a mere 2.19% of the total.
Overall Germany repaid only 29.89 billion of 452 billion in reparation claims from both wars - a mere 6.61%... maybe they should give the same deal to Greece.
The reduction comes closer to 50% not 9x% as you claim. What a country files and what it truly owes is entirely different as you yourself even pointed out but subsequently ignored. What claim do I really have against you when I say you owe me 200 billion because of an ill researched post?