Great. Look forward to it. We are mostly in agreement, i just wanted to flesh out a few details or discrepancies. thx for great discussion.
Gaining Muscle and Losing Fat (2015)
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Thanks Frederick...The newness, and going deeper into the range with the lighter weight. Been using this on both isolated and compounds. I've been happy with the results. I'll be greatly reducing my reps next cycle, and working heavier. I'll be adding break down sets...no breaks. The high rep, low weight serves as rehab for my joints, and keeps the max weight lower for the most part, but it's boring as shit. Only really go to that routine when my joints start bothering me a little more than usual. I actually went to my max on a few, even with the large amount of lower reps. Good sign to lower the volume.
Destriero (or others), what are your thoughts regarding isolating your rotator cuffs? If I understand your posts correctly, you don't do much in the way of isolation. I'd be concerned with bench and shoulder press work if the RC's don't get some direct attention. I do various L flys for mine with ultra light weight and high rep. Never heavy...ever. I always warm them up for bench or shoulder days. I've been advised to stretch them prior to every workout at my age.
Also, I don't currently do thrusters, but I understand they are considered one of the best compounds (as I think you were indicating). They are a combo squat shoulder press, right? How low do you take the squat portion (do you go ass to floor, or just to bench level), and do you pause your shoulders at the top of the squat prior to that portion or do you begin to raise the barb for the shoulder press as you are coming up from the squat? I would pause during clean and jerk back in the day, but those were more like a DL followed by a shoulder press.
I'm thinking about adding the thrusters, though I will be watching my knees closely. They've been acting up on free squats last few years. Probably start with just the bar as you suggested, or maybe even use DB's. I'll probably check out some youtubes. Got any good ones showing proper form? Thx.
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A great point made by destriero that should not be lost is that personal biochemistry (IGF etc) plays a big role in muscle development. Those levels lacking so may be results. Enhancing those thru heavy compound movements may pay great dividends beyond just local muscle stimulation (iso's)
I'm adding more heavy compounds, try thrusters and even take a shot at the snatch.
I'm adding more heavy compounds, try thrusters and even take a shot at the snatch.
Can't isolate the RC's, and why would you want to try? They work in concert with other muscles that cross shoulder joint. So, yes BP's, SP's will work those too.
I still don't understand the rationale combining a front squat with a push press (ie, thrusters)? rather, i'd do them separately because i can front squat withmore weight than I PP. When I combine them the weight is limited to my PP.
My thighs/glutes don't get the benefit of a "full" resistance.But I'm going to try them.
That's as close to direct attention as you would want (chest and shoulders). Flies are probably the worst movement in terms of injury incidence. I would not isolate; you can tear a tendon under light weight (high rep) or heavy. I would focus on bench (not too wide of a grip) and overheads. Most RC injuries that I see are the result of flies and wide-grip bench, not overheads. Warm up with both movements at say 40% of 1RM. The close-grip bench for tris will keep you using relatively light weight, but puts much less strain on your rotator.
It's unnecessary to isolate the delts. Don't do drop sets and you should warm-up with presses before bench. Thrusters will condition the delts just fine. Don't overtrain.
On the thruster; go as far as you can (to the floor) without lifting your heels. Keep the grip narrow so that you can keep your upper-arm parallel to the floor. It's one fluid movement.
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I'm no big crossfit fan either destriero but I think the appeal is it combines resistance training with athleticism doing away the "drudgery" of traditional rep/sets schemes.
A sport event the avg joe can participate. at least gets them off the sofa. so, i understand that, as I also get it all the crossfit moves & hoopla can't be justified in terms of effort and results.
A sport event the avg joe can participate. at least gets them off the sofa. so, i understand that, as I also get it all the crossfit moves & hoopla can't be justified in terms of effort and results.
I disagreed with you, with all do respect. I have several friends who've torn their RC's bad enough to require surgery. One doing bench presses recently.
Perhaps there is another term other than "isolation", though I, and many others, consider them isolation (they also server as rehab), as does the following article with pics. Additionally, I would not use the very moves that might damage them, such as BP and SP, to strengthen them. That's how most get torn by weight lifters. As you indicated, they work in concert with other muscles during the mentioned lifts, which is exactly why they should be independently strengthened. Specifically, internal and external rotation type of exercises.
This is an article with some examples.
http://www.physioroom.com/experts/asktheexperts/answers/qa_mb_20050225.php
From the end of the article:
"While all of these are very good at isolating the rotator cuff, not all may be appropriate to perform initially during the program."
Shoulder and Rotator Cuff anatomy:
http://www.aidmyrotatorcuff.com/rotator-cuff-information/rotator-cuff-and-shoulder-anatomy.php
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I already warm up with low percentages, as I've often indicated in this thread (bear in mind as we have exchanges of ideas, I've been at this for 30 years, and have studied many great bodybuilders...I'm not a beginner. Many people I train with are competitive BB's. I've been told I have the best lifting form some of them have seen). I do appreciate the advice, but I'm beginning to feel like I'm having ideas introduced to me as if I'm a novice based on a single post or question I might have posed in a prior post or two.
Don't misunderstand me. Not looking to start a flame war. I'm saying this with full respect and the assumption that those I'm having discussion with know what they are doing. It's obvious they do. We just all might have a different way of doing them. I've had fabulous results from my routines. That said, I always appreciate solicited advice, such as how to approach thrusters.
I've have injured (minor) my RC with overheads, so it does happen. Not a result of bad form, just moving up too soon during strengthening cycles, and yes, I had warmed up. I went to a specialist and learned that I have tendinitis in my left RC, and have had extensive discussion with him regarding my shoulder and RC (also have bone a spur in the ball of my spheroidal), which is why I disagree with you guys regarding the RC and using rotational exercises. They do strengthen the cuff in ways standard lifts don't.
I'm open to proof I don't need to treat them individually, and will read appropriate linked articles.
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disagree with me?? disagree with destriero. i don't do the bench press
There is very little to support the delts, so the fly is a good isolation movement strictly in terms of isolation, but it's not a good thing to do, IMO. I have seen more cuff injuries from flys and the dreaded upright row. Most ppl in gyms are untrained and do the dumbest shit imaginable, even if they're ripped. It's not that it won't work the group (uprights are shit in that regard, and dumb), but stuff like tri extensions force you into a isometric position, or worse.
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