I suggested it elsewhere, but I think a very reasonable approach to force the Chinese to strengthen their laws on IP theft and to grant foreign companies, whose IP is stolen, a watertight and strong legal position would be for the US to agree with most Western countries and blocks on forcing their nations' companies to not engage in any business if they are forced to transfer IP. This would not prevent IP theft but at least it would put an end to forced technology transfer. In a similar fashion as the US and Western nations have outlawed any unapproved weapons and nuclear material sales to certain countries should it be possible to make companies pledge to not enter into any agreements with anyone in China where an IP transfer is part of the deal (already today the US strictly monitors which products leave the US to be exported to foreign companies [I think anything above USD 2500 per commodity with few exemptions must be electronically filed prior to export] but so far it has been difficult to keep tabs on companies that operate abroad). Obviously, violations of such treaty must be punished. Several such similar deals are already in effect, for example, companies make themselves criminally liable if they engage in business in other countries and pursue their business goals via the utilization of bribes/corruption. We can certainly argue that enforcing such agreements is very hard and sometimes limiting the business reach of multi nationals but at the same time it will be hugely beneficial in the medium and long run. Such proposal would completely circumvent damaging tariffs.
Further blow to America's Farmers as TPP moves ahead
- Thread starter Cuddles
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"forced" technology transfer (actually more like forced partnerships) is one of the smartest plays the Chinese have made. It's guaranteed they're not just some sweatshop for the world like Mexico or Vietnam, and can actually develop their domestic industry. It really is blown out of proportion too. So some Japanese/American car maker has to relinquish 30 yr. old automotive tech to meet the requirement? Americans are just butt hurt because the Chinese will gladly buy that 30 yr old tech from domestic suppliers as long as it's wrapped in pretty sheet metal.
Nice, now having personal experience makes me a "special interest whiner" while you revel in your ignorance. Isn't it interesting how you completely ignore the inconvenient truth that you know nothing about this subject and instead turn it into a personal attack on those who do? Are you proud of that behavior?
It's also interesting how when your arguments get decimated you completely fail to reassess this position that you came to based on really nothing but instead divert and double down. Let's summarize:
1. You first claim "Trump has always been saying free trade, as in no tariffs. If you guys go past the "orange man bad" memes, you can see that he's trying to do something good, better than the puppets who went before him (why do you think the media is constantly trying to destroy him?)" We conclusively show that you're the one operating at the meme level with neither knowledge or experience in this area.
2. So you shift to a "Are there any objective criteria by which we can measure his success/failure that don't include a particular view on politics?" And we conclusively show a whole list of objective measures to support the prevailing viewpoint on trade while you present an example of a drain cleaner.
3. Well that didn't go so well you decide, let's assume they're idiots who don't grasp basic negotiating skills or the need to suffer short-term costs for longer term benefits. Again, when you get your ass handed to you there you completely fail to provide anything at all, let alone anything objective, to quantify the possible and probable benefit versus the for sure pain. And one wonders if you grasp the concept of NPV either?
4. Well when all else fails, @nooby_mcnoob goes for the personal attack. Now if you mention the significant harm trade wars are causing it makes you a "special interest whiner". And then accuses the person who repeatedly asked the guy pontificating on trade to quantify what he's saying and think about how he came to his opinions of "personally attacking". Winning strategy that!
So in the end you're left with a completely irrational argument where you basically say that we should blow shit up because that's "trying". You seem to like marriage analogies so I'll give you this one. My wife and I have disagreements. In several cases she isn't (gasp) "fair" to me and I have lost some of my "sovereignty" to her. And of course vice versa, but let's assume I'm a narcissist and can only look at this from my point of view. Net net I'm far better off being married from an emotional and (again the narcissist view) monetary point of view, but damn it this isn't "fair". So instead of discussing my issues with her, perhaps even engaging in a marriage counselor for some professional assistance, I kick her out of the house (because I'm physically stronger) and tell her she can come back when she gives me everything I want. That is "trying" and perhaps that makes one an "optimist" to you? I think it represents a moron who is soon to be divorced and be far worse off before they engaged in the idiocy of being an asshole to get what they wanted.
That's Trump, and since you're defending the behavior you, @nooby_mcnoob. You're basically saying that we should blow everything up, even though you haven't quantified how we're benefiting and how we're losing, even though you haven't determined what we have to lose versus what we have to gain, even though you know absolutely jack shit about the topic and revel in your ignorance to the point that anyone who actually does have experience in the area is a "special interest whiner". That behavior and position simply make no sense, and it's sad to see an otherwise intelligent person (you not Trump) behave in such a childish manner.
Hey man, I can tell you take this Really Seriously. Your response to me has been completely asymmetrical, maybe 50:1. Good luck to you.
Yeah, crazy but I think something that impacts tens of millions of people around the world is something to be taken seriously. In fact you inadvertently hit on the crux of the issue with that flippant comment. It's exactly because Trump and his followers don't take something so serious seriously and believe that their simplistic viewpoint should be taken over the well thought-out, researched, and experienced viewpoints that concerns all of the adults in the room.
None of what you said ensures that you're right. I apologize for not paying the same dues that you have in order to participate in this discussion.
I think that 95% of the Americans have no clue about the real (positive and /or negative) impact, of trade wars.
The same applies to the Europeans and British about the Brexit. Maybe it is good to follow the next few months what will happen after the Brexit. This might give the Americans an idea about what they are going to experience. Especially the problems that occurs but the majority never knew about.
What @Sig posted gives you already an idea about the impact.
Many famous economists confirmed in past that trade varriers are bad for the economy of all the parties concerned. Free trading brings prosperity for all participants. I speak about non criminal activities, so not about stealing IP from each other, industrial spionage, hacking...
The same applies to the Europeans and British about the Brexit. Maybe it is good to follow the next few months what will happen after the Brexit. This might give the Americans an idea about what they are going to experience. Especially the problems that occurs but the majority never knew about.
What @Sig posted gives you already an idea about the impact.
Many famous economists confirmed in past that trade varriers are bad for the economy of all the parties concerned. Free trading brings prosperity for all participants. I speak about non criminal activities, so not about stealing IP from each other, industrial spionage, hacking...
Interesting how history just repeats itself in different forms - Transfer your IP and very selves to USA "voluntarily" or spend the rest of your life in Jail.
Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun (March 23, 1912 – June 16, 1977) was a German-American aerospace engineer[3] and space architect. He was the leading figure in the development of rocket technology in Germany and the father of rocket technology and space science in the United States.[4]
While in his twenties and early thirties, von Braun worked in Nazi Germany's rocket development program. He helped design and develop the V-2 rocket at Peenemünde during World War II. Following the war, he was secretly moved to the United States, along with about 1,600 other German scientists, engineers, and technicians, as part of Operation Paperclip. Wikipedia
If a manufacturer does not want to give up his IP, then it doesn't have to manufacture in a country that forces it to do so. If the argument is that they cannot be profitable if they don't manufacture in those countries, well then you either give it up or you don't have a business. Such is business.
Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun (March 23, 1912 – June 16, 1977) was a German-American aerospace engineer[3] and space architect. He was the leading figure in the development of rocket technology in Germany and the father of rocket technology and space science in the United States.[4]
While in his twenties and early thirties, von Braun worked in Nazi Germany's rocket development program. He helped design and develop the V-2 rocket at Peenemünde during World War II. Following the war, he was secretly moved to the United States, along with about 1,600 other German scientists, engineers, and technicians, as part of Operation Paperclip. Wikipedia
If a manufacturer does not want to give up his IP, then it doesn't have to manufacture in a country that forces it to do so. If the argument is that they cannot be profitable if they don't manufacture in those countries, well then you either give it up or you don't have a business. Such is business.
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And in reality U.S. business has already solved for the lack of IP protection in China in much the way you allude to. If you've got actual defensible IP, i.e. the mask for you IC, you build that in a country with good IP protection. If you've got indefensible IP and in reality it doesn't matter, i.e. a drain cleaning device, you go ahead and take the cheap labor in exchange for "losing" your IP when they sell the things in China without giving you royalties.
The real truth is that IP defense isn't law enforcement, its civil law. That means if you hold a patent and you believe someone infringed on it, even in the U.S. with strong patent protections, you don't get to call the cops and ask them to intervene on your behalf. You have to bring a civil suit against the infringement. Guess what, inventors of drain cleaning chains and the like generally don't have the resources to do that and generally don't. Not to mention that the guys infringing on a patent for things like drain cleaners are generally judgement proof even if you do succeed in enforcing a patent. So having a patent is an illusion in the vast majority of cases anyway, even in the U.S. with strong patent protections, albeit an illusion that a lot of people fall for, especially new entrepreneurs. It's a complete illusion when it comes to international markets, a small company is almost never going to legally defend their patent in 50 or 60 different countries against a bunch of knock-off entities who would be able to pay out nothing even if you own. If we're going to enter a trade war on behalf of small entrepreneurs (of which I am one) who are almost never going to successfully defend a patent anyway then we're being utter fools. Again, something that sounds good in a simplistic, sound bite Trumpian kind of way but in practice is much different.
Going further with the drain cleaner, he was simply after cease and desist, not even damages. Cease-and-desist all over the world would dramatically increase revenue for that small business. They apparently achieved it in Europe and North America.
And by the way, I have experience with being ripped off myself. It was flattering, but super fucking annoying. If I could pay a lawyer a few K to make myself a few hundred K, I'd do it.