Wrong again doodoo
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_percap
Top GDP per Capita in Latin America (world bank stats 2004)
Mexico
Chile
Costa Rica
Panama
Venezuela
Belize
Uruguay
Argentina
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Free-market "failures" and South American socialism
- Thread starter futures_shark
- Start date
Wrong again doodoo
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_percap
Top GDP per Capita in Latin America (world bank stats 2004)
Mexico
Chile
Costa Rica
Panama
Venezuela
Belize
Uruguay
Argentina
Quote from gortaur:
I have yet to see any example of country that has made a move toward socialism without a relative decline in its living standards.
Quote from dddooo:
Me neither. I have not seen any example of a country that has successfully implemented the free market model either. I've seen lots of extremely successful countries with mixed economies though. The US comes to mind.
That is where the growth is occurring in emerging markets. As governments MOVE policies TOWARD a free market model their economies experience growth and their people experience increased standards of living. As they move towards more socialist policies standards of living decline, as you agree above.
Quote from dddooo:
...
Good luck and don't forget to keep it simple - "government bad, free market good". No ifs, buts, facts or nuances, when it's really really really simple - it must be correct and must be the right solution for absolutely every nation, culture, age and situation.
You obviously believe all government propaganda on blind faith,maybe you should try thinking for yourself.
My mind & my eyes are open and all I see are government failures and free-market successes.
If you have a modern day example to support your case I'll listen. I have many examples of government failures to point out.
Not according to the heritage foundation and the CIA website.Quote from futures_shark:
Wrong again doodoo
Top GDP per Capita in Latin America (world bank stats 2004)
Mexico
Chile
Costa Rica
Panama
Venezuela
Belize
Uruguay
Argentina
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ar.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2004.html
BTW we were talking about South America, not Latin America. You have problems with both geography AND history
Let me try againQuote from futures_shark:
I'm still waiting for a real example of a free market failure.
-Europe in the second half of the 19th century
-the United States of America, end of the 19th century - beginning of the 20th century
-South America - just a few years ago.
The first twe examples are especially telling, (I am less familiar with the South American problems). There were virtually no government regulations and the results were disastrous - poverty, inequality, crime, terrible labor conditions, exploitation, indentured servitude, monopolization of entire industries, cornered markets, collusions, plutocracy, aligarchy, government corruption etc.
Of course there's never been a country without a government so whenever the free market experiment fails you blame the government. How convenient. And of course there's never been a 100% free-market economy, nevertheless you keep believing that it's not a fantasy and that it works. And of course whenever there is an economic success story you attribute it the free market even though it may have absolutely nothing to do with it (like in China's case). It must be nice to live in an imaginary world.
Excuse me for giving you too much information. I hope it didn't overload your tiny brain. The data on the CIA site are estimates for 2005 base on purchasing power parity. The data from nationmaster.com is FACTUAL nominal GDP for 2004 from the World Bank. Things are very cheap in Argentina because of the recent devaluation and this most likely contributes to the higher ranking on the PPP scale.Quote from dddooo:
Not according to the heritage foundation and the CIA website.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ar.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2004.html
BTW we were talking about South America, not Latin America. You have problems with both geography AND history
I'm really getting tired of repeating myself here, but how do these time frames show a failure of capitalism & free-markets? What specifically was the failure you are referring to? And the original article that I posted explains how the free-market wasn't given a chance in south america. But I guess you didn't read that either.
Let me try again
-Europe in the second half of the 19th century
-the United States of America, end of the 19th century - beginning of the 20th century
-South America - just a few years ago.
I've been pointing out that there are no truly free markets, but that as policies change towards a market friendly policy prosperity increases. And there are hundreds of examples of successful free market transactions that occur everyday. You may even have accidently been part of one. Ever buy something on Ebay. Two people come together with minimal government interference to transact business.Of course there's never been a country without a government so whenever the free market experiment fails you blame the government. How convenient. And of course there's never been a 100% free-market economy, nevertheless you keep believing that it's not a fantasy and that it works. And of course whenever there is an economic success story you attribute it the free market even though it may have absolutely nothing to do with it (like in China's case). It must be nice to live in an imaginary world.
Quote from futures_shark:
The data from nationmaster.com is FACTUAL nominal GDP for 2004 from the World Bank. Things are very cheap in Argentina because of the recent devaluation and this most likely contributes to the higher ranking on the PPP scale.
nationamaster.com claims to be using the CIA and Heritage foundation data, yet their GDP for Argentina is significantly different (lower) than both the CIA's and the heritage foundation's estimates.
"SOURCES: CIA World Factbook; The Heritage Foundation; World Bank,"
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ar/eco
You're right about PPP but it only means that Argentinians have a higher purchasing power than Chileans and can afford more things, how is that supposed to be a bad thing?
What specifically was the failure you are referring to?
I edited my previous post and added the following paragraph which I presume you did not read:
The first twe examples are especially telling, (I am less familiar with the South American problems). There were virtually no government regulations and the results were disastrous - poverty, inequality, crime, terrible labor conditions, exploitation, indentured servitude, monopolization of entire industries, cornered markets, collusions, plutocracy, aligarchy, government corruption etc.
And the original article that I posted explains how the free-market wasn't given a chance in south america.
It does not explain it, it claims that the free market failed because there was a bad government. Sorry but it's not good enough. As I indicated many times before because there is always some kind of government it becomes a convenient and bogus excuse whenever the free maket experiment fails. In real life big business under free market (AKA anything goes if you have money) conditions tends to merge with the government and corrupt it.
Ever buy something on Ebay. Two people come together with minimal government interference to transact business.
Yeah but it took the government to invent the internet to begin with. Correct me if I am wrong but it was a government project. And of course ebay transactions should not be regulated. Are you saying that because ebay transactions need not be regulated no other domestic and especially international transactons need ever be regulated either? Talk about simplistic!
There is a good case to be made that so called 'free trade', free markets or whatever you want to call them do not necessarily benefit developing counties. This article
http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1664984,00.html
cites numerous cases. Amongst them South Korea and Taiwan where rapid economic development coincided with heavy levels of import protection, and many other forms of government intervention/participation in the economy. Their success has probably been due to government policy.
The socialism vs free market 'debate' is just ideological clap trap. South Korea or Taiwan are just as capitalist as the United States.
http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1664984,00.html
cites numerous cases. Amongst them South Korea and Taiwan where rapid economic development coincided with heavy levels of import protection, and many other forms of government intervention/participation in the economy. Their success has probably been due to government policy.
The socialism vs free market 'debate' is just ideological clap trap. South Korea or Taiwan are just as capitalist as the United States.
I just moved to China...what strikes me is the fact that there are huge malls with tons of good priced at the level of dept store goods in the US and Western Europe...but there are VERY FEW shoppers.
if you go to one of these malls, you will find <b>hundreds</b> of clerks, and a handful of shoppers. no one can afford these goods...yet.
th clerks remind me of the mill workers of 19th century America in that they are all women, paid a pittance (speculation, but i think it's true) and live in dormatories. no idea how long these malls can stay in business without shoppers willing to pay Western prices.
while the people are quite nice, and the service is great, there is something very thailand pre-baht crisis about this place. i fear things are going to get a lot cheaper.
if you go to one of these malls, you will find <b>hundreds</b> of clerks, and a handful of shoppers. no one can afford these goods...yet.
th clerks remind me of the mill workers of 19th century America in that they are all women, paid a pittance (speculation, but i think it's true) and live in dormatories. no idea how long these malls can stay in business without shoppers willing to pay Western prices.
while the people are quite nice, and the service is great, there is something very thailand pre-baht crisis about this place. i fear things are going to get a lot cheaper.
Uh huh? My aunt works at a mall.
She gets more than enough money to spend on niceties and pay for her daughter's education.(my cousin)
She bought a house on a long term mortgage not so long ago(financially poor decision, but oh well)...
She gets more than enough money to spend on niceties and pay for her daughter's education.(my cousin)
She bought a house on a long term mortgage not so long ago(financially poor decision, but oh well)...
The heritage foundation number is 2003 data in constant 2000 US dollars.Quote from dddooo:
nationamaster.com claims to be using the CIA and Heritage foundation data, yet their GDP for Argentina is significantly different (lower) than both the CIA's and the heritage foundation's estimates.
"SOURCES: CIA World Factbook; The Heritage Foundation; World Bank,"
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ar/eco
You're right about PPP but it only means that Argentineans have a higher purchasing power than Chileans and can afford more things, how is that supposed to be a bad thing?
The CIA number is an estimate for 2005.
Although Nationmaster.com uses multiple sources for the information on their website, the link I posted for GDP per capita was using data from the world bank for 2004. You would have seen this if you actually took the time to look at the information I was presenting.
How is government corruption a free-market failure?Quote from dddooo:
I edited my previous post and added the following paragraph which I presume you did not read:
The first twe examples are especially telling, (I am less familiar with the South American problems). There were virtually no government regulations and the results were disastrous - poverty, inequality, crime, terrible labor conditions, exploitation, indentured servitude, monopolization of entire industries, cornered markets, collusions, plutocracy, aligarchy, government corruption etc.
Do you have any sources for this information or are you pulling this out of your arse?
How did the free-market fail and create poverty, inequality, crime, etc?
All I ask for is one specific example of how a free-market system has failed and you have not been able to do that. I could easily unload multiple instances of government failures.
I just re-read the article, maybe you should too. The main point of the article is that socialism is gaining power in SA as politicians sell it by claiming prior free-market policies failed to bring results. One example was privatizing a government business and then protecting it with high tariffs. SO the actual change was from a public monopoly to a private monopoly and hence no benefit. That is not true free-market reformQuote from dddooo:
It does not explain it, it claims that the free market failed because there was a bad government. Sorry but it's not good enough. As I indicated many times before because there is always some kind of government it becomes a convenient and bogus excuse whenever the free market experiment fails. In real life big business under free market (AKA anything goes if you have money) conditions tends to merge with the government and corrupt it.
Quote from dddooo:
Yeah but it took the government to invent the internet to begin with. Correct me if I am wrong but it was a government project. And of course ebay transactions should not be regulated. Are you saying that because ebay transactions need not be regulated no other domestic and especially international transactions need ever be regulated either? Talk about simplistic!
Yes the internet was originally created as a defense department project some time in the '60's I believe. But todays internet is privately owned and the success of it has come from free enterprise not government involvement.
I used the ebay example to show that although there are no fully free-market economies in existence there are many examples of free-market successes. Free-market behavior is natural and people engaged in it every day. Promoting government control says that you think the politicians know what's better for you than you know yourself. This may be true for you but it is certainly not for me.
Since you seem so fond of the heritage foundation maybe you should read some more of the report on economic freedom besides just the summary table.
¤ In Chapter 2, James Tooley and Pauline Dixon describe their research on how the entrepreneurial talents of people in Africa and Asia have created nonâgovernment-sanctioned private schools that deliver a superior level of education.
¤ In Chapter 3, Barun Mitra writes of the entrepreneurs in India who have managed to circumvent pervasive restrictions and create markets where there might have been none. Are cheap cars unavailable because of high tariffs? Have one made by the local village mechanic.
¤ In Chapter 4, Michael Gonzalez writes about how informal banking institutions in Chinese provinces are providing accessible funding to individuals that the state-run banks cannot serve.