Would be nice to know what's in that black box, wouldn't it?
Finally !!! ASK QUESTIONS, DEMAND ANSWERS.
- Thread starter total180
- Start date
People letâs get few things right. I apologize ahead of time for the long post, but Iâd like to shed some light in these theories, formulas and calculations.
First, this comment from esuperbo caught my attention and compelled me to chime in.
ââ¦at many incidents you're lucky to find something more than foot or two squareâ.
A B757 crash leaving only a 2 foot square? You are kidding right?
kjkent1 esuperbo and others,
Yes energy involved is high. But MASS DOES NOT disappear unless it is fully converted to energy, use the old faithful E=mc^2 ---- how much is that. But it would require a nuclear explosion and fusible/fusible materials
Ok back to the basic principles.
One needs to have some basic understanding of the following physics and/or engineering concepts:
Conservation of energy, conservation of mass, momentum, momentum conservation, energy absorbed during elastic deformation, plastic deformation, upon impact, materials fracture stress limits to start with the basics.
Iâll try to put the principle in simple terms. The planeâs kinetic energy relative to earth as a reference point, is ½ m*^2 what happens to that energy?
Upon impact :
The energy is converted to 1. elastic deformation, upon the elastic stress limit is exceeded 2. additional energy is absorbed into plastic deformation, and 3 after the plastic limit gets exceeded we have fracture/failure. The remainder of the energy scatters the fractured object parts around, a very small portion is also converted into heat and sound waves.
The TOTAL MASS IS CONSERVED. Each object has suffered deformations and depending on the amount of energy, it has gone through itâs own limits all the way to fracture failure.
To illustrate,
Go up to your second floor and drop a penny on the cement driveway, does it disappear? It comes to an abrupt stop âinstantlyâ. Drop a glass. Better yet grab your magnum (if you have one) and shoot the cement, âinstantâ bullet stoppage, you will always find the bullet remains, it just doesn'tât disappear, (exit nozzle velocity is over 2000 f/s over 2900 mph)
---Better yet, look up terminal velocity of a free falling object, and then go to NASAâs site and look at satellites that have been crashing on earth that hadn'tât completely burned through the atmosphere.
Keep in mind the plane was not an explosive charge.
For example an explosive charge converts itâs mass through a chemical reaction from solids to gasses (e.g. smell of cordite) and displaces huge amount of air and thus the explosive effect. Total mass is still conserved. Then you will find little solid mass left behind, portions of casing, guide winglets etc.
Steel, aluminum, glass, composites, people are not explosives.
. I wonât tell you much about my background but I have discussed this extensively with many fellow professionals, the evidence does not support the âofficialâ story. If you donât trust of follow what I say, I will ask you then to take your theories, calculations, and facts from the incident to your local engineering college, and ask anyone what they think, better yet go to a Dynamics class and ask the professor there.
Ohhh and by your theory, do calculate the total energy of the Towerâs collapse, (magnitudes grater than the plane crash) then there really should have been nothing left to clean up
HOWEVER; Why even bother, just listed to the first response people on site.
What is really the clincher here, the coronerâs remarks. He was there first on site following the âcrashâ
â..I stopped being a coroner after 20 mins, there were no bodies anywhere, there was no plane,⦠it was like someone had dug up a ditch and dumped few scrap metal parts in it⦠â
6000 gallons of fuel and you only see an instant plum like a mortar going off (see my previous posts and pics)
Not to mention how is it possible for the plane âto be annihilated â but lookie here we got the DNA confirms on the passengers. (steel vaporized into thin air steel melts 2700-3000 deg, but hey flesh and bones survived got separated and DNA was confirmed)
Is this the plane âimprint on the ground? Fuselage and the wings?
The âofficialâ story does not hold water, period.
I tried hard to find answers, I looked at debunking sites, re-examined my materials science references, talked to other professional engineers. It just doesnât add up.
Few of the many things we must consider are represented here http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1019331#post1019331
Read what I wrote starting with
-Letâs be honest folks, Where is, what is, the solid ...-
Guys, I do understand were you come from. I also bought the âofficialâ story initially, within all the chaos, tears and pain, logic was overtaken by emotions. Run behind George seeking revenge, war, blow them to kingdom come. But things did not make too much sense once it started settling down and more info was coming out from the official sources. Read my link aboveâ¦
I recalled the Cessna flying off course few miles near the white house, and the F-16s were on top of it within minutes, and here we had 4 planes for such a long time and no fighters to intercept??? Now there is something very wrong there. And I started searching, on both the so called âdebunking sitesâ and the so called âconspiracy onesâ. I looked that the tapes, and the available facts from the âofficialâ sources. It just doesn'tât add up. Hence, total180 (someone had asked in a pm long time ago).
And last but not least, when a theory fits ALL the evidence and can explain ALL that happened, THAT theory no matter how difficult to accept, that theory is not a conspiracy theory, it is the truth.
Well it looks like we are at stage 2.
First, this comment from esuperbo caught my attention and compelled me to chime in.
ââ¦at many incidents you're lucky to find something more than foot or two squareâ.
A B757 crash leaving only a 2 foot square? You are kidding right?
kjkent1 esuperbo and others,
Yes energy involved is high. But MASS DOES NOT disappear unless it is fully converted to energy, use the old faithful E=mc^2 ---- how much is that. But it would require a nuclear explosion and fusible/fusible materials
Ok back to the basic principles.
One needs to have some basic understanding of the following physics and/or engineering concepts:
Conservation of energy, conservation of mass, momentum, momentum conservation, energy absorbed during elastic deformation, plastic deformation, upon impact, materials fracture stress limits to start with the basics.
Iâll try to put the principle in simple terms. The planeâs kinetic energy relative to earth as a reference point, is ½ m*^2 what happens to that energy?
Upon impact :
The energy is converted to 1. elastic deformation, upon the elastic stress limit is exceeded 2. additional energy is absorbed into plastic deformation, and 3 after the plastic limit gets exceeded we have fracture/failure. The remainder of the energy scatters the fractured object parts around, a very small portion is also converted into heat and sound waves.
The TOTAL MASS IS CONSERVED. Each object has suffered deformations and depending on the amount of energy, it has gone through itâs own limits all the way to fracture failure.
To illustrate,
Go up to your second floor and drop a penny on the cement driveway, does it disappear? It comes to an abrupt stop âinstantlyâ. Drop a glass. Better yet grab your magnum (if you have one) and shoot the cement, âinstantâ bullet stoppage, you will always find the bullet remains, it just doesn'tât disappear, (exit nozzle velocity is over 2000 f/s over 2900 mph)
---Better yet, look up terminal velocity of a free falling object, and then go to NASAâs site and look at satellites that have been crashing on earth that hadn'tât completely burned through the atmosphere.
Keep in mind the plane was not an explosive charge.
For example an explosive charge converts itâs mass through a chemical reaction from solids to gasses (e.g. smell of cordite) and displaces huge amount of air and thus the explosive effect. Total mass is still conserved. Then you will find little solid mass left behind, portions of casing, guide winglets etc.
Steel, aluminum, glass, composites, people are not explosives.
. I wonât tell you much about my background but I have discussed this extensively with many fellow professionals, the evidence does not support the âofficialâ story. If you donât trust of follow what I say, I will ask you then to take your theories, calculations, and facts from the incident to your local engineering college, and ask anyone what they think, better yet go to a Dynamics class and ask the professor there.
Ohhh and by your theory, do calculate the total energy of the Towerâs collapse, (magnitudes grater than the plane crash) then there really should have been nothing left to clean up
HOWEVER; Why even bother, just listed to the first response people on site.
What is really the clincher here, the coronerâs remarks. He was there first on site following the âcrashâ
â..I stopped being a coroner after 20 mins, there were no bodies anywhere, there was no plane,⦠it was like someone had dug up a ditch and dumped few scrap metal parts in it⦠â
6000 gallons of fuel and you only see an instant plum like a mortar going off (see my previous posts and pics)
Not to mention how is it possible for the plane âto be annihilated â but lookie here we got the DNA confirms on the passengers. (steel vaporized into thin air steel melts 2700-3000 deg, but hey flesh and bones survived got separated and DNA was confirmed)
Is this the plane âimprint on the ground? Fuselage and the wings?
The âofficialâ story does not hold water, period.
I tried hard to find answers, I looked at debunking sites, re-examined my materials science references, talked to other professional engineers. It just doesnât add up.
Few of the many things we must consider are represented here http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1019331#post1019331
Read what I wrote starting with
-Letâs be honest folks, Where is, what is, the solid ...-
Guys, I do understand were you come from. I also bought the âofficialâ story initially, within all the chaos, tears and pain, logic was overtaken by emotions. Run behind George seeking revenge, war, blow them to kingdom come. But things did not make too much sense once it started settling down and more info was coming out from the official sources. Read my link aboveâ¦
I recalled the Cessna flying off course few miles near the white house, and the F-16s were on top of it within minutes, and here we had 4 planes for such a long time and no fighters to intercept??? Now there is something very wrong there. And I started searching, on both the so called âdebunking sitesâ and the so called âconspiracy onesâ. I looked that the tapes, and the available facts from the âofficialâ sources. It just doesn'tât add up. Hence, total180 (someone had asked in a pm long time ago).
And last but not least, when a theory fits ALL the evidence and can explain ALL that happened, THAT theory no matter how difficult to accept, that theory is not a conspiracy theory, it is the truth.
Well it looks like we are at stage 2.
I still hold that 6 ton pratically solid metal engines do not vaporize simply from a 500 mph impact spiced with kerosene fuel. It's BS and your grip on the real world (IMO) is questionable if you maintain otherwise.
What an eye opener this has been for this Bush supporter - regrding these murderous "tragedies".
Holy SH!T !!
What an eye opener this has been for this Bush supporter - regrding these murderous "tragedies".
Holy SH!T !!
Jaguar -
Are you familiar with the design of a jet engine? If anything, this is more likely to disintegrate due to the huge amount of kinetic energy stored in the turbine. Remember that everything in aviation is designed with weight in mind... and that this tends to result in designs that respond very well to typical loading patterns but are not optimized for the loadings one would encounter in a crash.
I mean, a jet engine is really a turbine with a fuel supply attached, and you're finding it hard to believe the thing broke apart?
There are some very interesting questions raised by this thread that I think are important to discuss. The fact that airplanes typically blow into tiny pieces on impact isn't one of them! This is well established in a huge amount of literature. You're missing the forest for the trees!
Are you familiar with the design of a jet engine? If anything, this is more likely to disintegrate due to the huge amount of kinetic energy stored in the turbine. Remember that everything in aviation is designed with weight in mind... and that this tends to result in designs that respond very well to typical loading patterns but are not optimized for the loadings one would encounter in a crash.
I mean, a jet engine is really a turbine with a fuel supply attached, and you're finding it hard to believe the thing broke apart?
There are some very interesting questions raised by this thread that I think are important to discuss. The fact that airplanes typically blow into tiny pieces on impact isn't one of them! This is well established in a huge amount of literature. You're missing the forest for the trees!
Quote from total180:
Is this the plane âimprint on the ground? Fuselage and the wings?
The scar in the ground was already there. It had grass already growing in it by the time it was used to look like a crash site. The landowner previously put the scar in the ground for whatever reason.
Reporters were kept at a distance from this "crash" site. The current memorial is at a distance from this site.
Now let's go git Osama.
JohnnyK
Out of respect to Baron I should close this thread. If any potential sponser were to stumble upon this shit and see how many stupid, insane, vindictive members this site contains, he'd head for the hills.
If you used your heads you'd realize that perhaps thousands of people would need to be utulized in a "conspiracy" of this sort. Hell you can't commit a crime with your own brother without him tricking you out to the cops the first instant the heat's on.
Of course as we all know the FDNY, NYPD, FBI, NTSB, and 9/11 commission have been taken over by robotic aliens with microchips sewn into thier brains......
If you used your heads you'd realize that perhaps thousands of people would need to be utulized in a "conspiracy" of this sort. Hell you can't commit a crime with your own brother without him tricking you out to the cops the first instant the heat's on.
Of course as we all know the FDNY, NYPD, FBI, NTSB, and 9/11 commission have been taken over by robotic aliens with microchips sewn into thier brains......
Ohh Please...spare the excuse...
Didnât Baron create chitchat to discuss âcontroversial issuesâ that donât belong in the trading forums and as many wanted âto let off some steam?â This thread hasnât violated any TOS, at least not by the starter of the thread.
Have you looked at many of the threads you have created?
Many threads in chitchat, have had explicit pics, profanities, personal attacks even worst and they stand.
Regarding your remark âstupid, insane, vindictive members this site containsâ, if that's the case, arenât you one of the possibly worst offenders? Take a look at your own posts, both in spirit and wording, when you donât agree with oneâs view.
We all understand the evidence and the simple questions are hurting. Maybe the truth will expose the ones you are so determined to support? Please do not try to divert the threadâs subject with threats of closing it.
Back to the thread discussion.
Thousands to do the inside job? Not really.
A handful of guys at the top ranks, they are fully shielded at least so far from any meaningful investigation.
Couple of judges to suppress tapes releasing, and hold back the lawsuits. Few âFBIâ agents to confiscate the DOT tapes e.g. (85 tapes) that covered the whole Pentagon hit. Keeping the black boxes from full public disclosure.
A couple of releases to the press on that passport that survived the fires. It only takes few guys on very high places.
---Who had control of NORAD response since June 2001? Taking over the planes by remote control is easy, and couple of dozen people to prewire the towers if that.
The rest of the people afterwards just followed orders in the chaos. Rubber stamp the âfinal officialâ reports, standard procedure. Heck the Partiot Act was passed without senators reading it, and it became law.
Most if not all civilians and first response personnel eyewitnesses, oppose the âofficialâ story. Hundreds on site.
Investigation behind closed doors? Using what evidence?
It doesnât take thousands, maybe a dozen at the top if that, and maybe few dozen devoted bellow them. The rest just follows through.
It happened before a number of times. History is clearly on the side of those who question the inaccuracies and gaps of the âofficial storyâ. It takes time. Did you forget Gulf of Tonkin resolution and Vietnam? How many were behind the fraud? and yet 56 thousand Americans died.
As the title of the thread states itâs about asking questions, and as the chitchat is designated, is to have a discussion about it. So cool your guns ok? Let's get back to the thread's topic.