Evolution Just Got Harder to Defend

Do you want me to link to the threads?
I'd rather you didn't, but thank you for offering. Jem, as you know, I am not a religious person. But if I was, I would pray that you wake up to reality. There is probably not a single physicist or chemist among those leading these fields forward today that believes in either a God in the Christian Biblical sense or "an intelligent designer." I will allow for the reality that both very bright physicists and chemists, and I have personally known plenty, occasionally evidence a streak of abnormality, a streak of insanity if you like, and you may indeed find a rare individual of renown in these professions that takes seriously the remotest possibilities, even that that may fly in the face of reality. Nevertheless, when any serious scientist mentions "intelligent design" they are virtually always mentioning it in jest.

Just look around you, you see complex organisms and plant life everywhere. Now I ask you, does that tell you that the existence of life on our planet, is improbable? No, of course not, it tells you quite the opposite. Life is highly probable given the conditions that exist on our planet. And it is because of the intertwined physical and chemical laws which so highly constrain what is probable and what isn't.

My views on this particular question, incidentally, are those of Susskinds. When Susskind says everything happened that could happen, the "could" in his statement is referring to the constraints of the laws of physics -- he is a physicist after all. I would say he might well have included chemistry in his statement, because the laws of physics are also the laws of chemistry, they are intertwined.

I believe the difficulty the layman has in accepting the viewpoint of physicists and chemists lies in a misunderstanding of the word "random." The layman generally interprets that word to mean anything can happen, but in the scientific and statistical sense it means something else entirely. Only very specific things can happen, but the order in which they happen can be random. Keep in mind that if you have multiple, multistep, highly determined processes with randomness at each step, then in each case, the prior step alters what the possibilities for the next step are, but the order in which these next steps occur may be random. Consider my previous example, if you will, and suppose instead of drawing cards randomly from a hat and then putting the drawn card back into the hat after each draw you set the drawn card on a table, then the probabilities for the next draw have been altered, but the order in which you draw the next card remains random. Now pretend you are Einstein and sit on a rock and just think about this. This idea of what random means in science and statistics versus what it means to the man on the street has been the bane of not a few beginning students in introductory statistics.
 
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If you were to educated yourselves in this field you would see he just told you that he believes the reason why our universe looks so incredibly designed is the multiverse. In his lexicon... environments equals other "universes".

i know this for a fact as i have proven it to Stu before.

So wait, you're saying that science says one thing and jem says that they are saying the other?
I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you!!
 
I am not arguing the God of the bible at all. Why do every single one of you lefty atheists always bring that straw man type cheap argumentation into it. If I argue God of the bible then bring it up.

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Frankly, I have no idea how you could pretend to be so ignorant.

Piezoe do you understand how finely tuned the standard model of physics is.
20 constants to 30 decimal places and the Cosmological constant to 122 decimal places.

Using the standard model they predicted and found the Higgs Boson.
Do you now how incredibly fine tuned that is?
Do you understand how non natural according to science that is?

Do you really think some that non natural was inevitable?

When Susskind says that everything that could happen did... he is quite specifically referring to that fact that the String Theory model of physics of what he was a pioneer predicted at least 10 to the 500 solutions. Those solutions were not necessarily all actually real universes.

It was he Susskind who in his book about 7 years ago that speculated those possible string theory solutions were real. And that therefore with 10 to the 500 other universes you could account for the fine tuning of ours.

I beg you Piezoe stop bullshitting yours ass off. As a scientist your arguments sound good but lately they have been specious bullshit.

Why are you misleading people on purpose.


Here is proof of what I am saying.. I will post it below.









I'd rather you didn't, but thank you for offering. Jem, as you know, I am not a religious person. But if I was, I would pray that you wake up to reality. There is probably not a single physicist or chemist among those leading these fields forward today that believes in either a God in the Christian Biblical sense or "an intelligent designer." I will allow for the reality that both very bright physicists and chemists, and I have personally known plenty, occasionally evidence a streak of abnormality, a streak of insanity if you like, and you may indeed find a rare individual of renown in these professions that takes seriously the remotest possibilities, even that that may fly in the face of reality. Nevertheless, when any serious scientist mentions "intelligent design" they are virtually always mentioning it in jest.

Just look around you, you see complex organisms and plant life everywhere. Now I ask you, does that tell you that the existence of life on our planet, is improbable? No, of course not, it tells you quite the opposite. Life is highly probable given the conditions that exist on our planet. And it is because of the intertwined physical and chemical laws which so highly constrain what is probable and what isn't.

My views on this particular question, incidentally, are those of Susskinds. When Susskind says everything happened that could happen, the "could" in his statement is referring to the constraints of the laws of physics -- he is a physicist after all. I would say he might well have included chemistry in his statement, because the laws of physics are also the laws of chemistry, they are intertwined.

I believe the difficulty the layman has in accepting the viewpoint of physicists and chemists lies in a misunderstanding of the word "random." The layman generally interprets that word to mean anything can happen, but in the scientific and statistical sense it means something else entirely. Only very specific things can happen, but the order in which they happen can be random. Keep in mind that if you have multiple, multistep, highly determined processes with randomness at each step, then in each case, the prior step alters what the possibilities for the next step are, but the order in which these next steps occur may be random. Consider my previous example, if you will, and suppose instead of drawing cards randomly from a hat and then putting the drawn card back into the hat after each draw you set the drawn card on a table, then the probabilities for the next draw have been altered, but the order in which you draw the next card remains random. Now pretend you are Einstein and sit on a rock and just think about this. This idea of what random means in science and statistics versus what it means to the man on the street has been the bane of not a few beginning students in introductory statistics.
 
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you may wish to read the whole review. it might bring you up to speed if you are ready to drop your 1950s blinders.


note.. the 10500 solutions is 10 raised to the 500 in proper format.



http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/15/books/review/15powell.html?_r=0


THE COSMIC LANDSCAPE

String Theory and the

Illusion of Intelligent Design.

By Leonard Susskind.

Illustrated. 403 pp. Little, Brown & Company.

$24.95.

Physicists are not like ordinary people, and string theorists are not like ordinary physicists. Even compared with their peers, crafters of the arcane model of reality that is string theory think in terms of sweeping explanations of nature's design. Leonard Susskind, a founder of the theory and one of its leading practitioners, brazenly lays out this no-boundaries attitude on the first page of his new book. His research, he declares, "touches not only on current paradigm shifts in physics and cosmology, but also on the profound cultural questions that are rocking our social and political landscape: can science explain the extraordinary fact that the universe appears to be uncannily, nay, spectacularly, well designed for our own existence?"

What troubles Susskind is an intelligent design argument considerably more vexing than the anti-evolution grumblings recently on trial in Dover, Pa. Biologists can point to unambiguous evidence that evolution truly does happen and that it can account for many otherwise inexplicable aspects of how organisms function. For those who take a more cosmic perspective, however, the appearance of design is not so simply refuted. If gravity were slightly stronger than it is, for instance, stars would burn out quickly and collapse into black holes; if gravity were a touch weaker, stars would never have formed in the first place. The same holds true for pretty much every fundamental property of the forces and particles that make up the universe. Change any one of them and life would not be possible. To the creationist, this cosmic comity is evidence of the glory of God. To the scientist, it is an embarrassing reminder of our ignorance about the origin of physical law.

Until recently, most physicists took it on faith that as they refined their theories and upgraded their experiments they would eventually expose a set of underlying rules requiring the universe to be this way and this way only. In "A Brief History of Time," Stephen Hawking recalled Albert Einstein's question "How much choice did God have in constructing the universe?" before replying that, judging from the latest ideas in physics, God "had no freedom at all." Like many leading physicists at the time, Hawking believed that scientists were closing in on nature's essential rules -- the ones that even God must obey -- and that string theory was leading them on a likely path to enlightenment.

Although string theory resists translation into ordinary language, its central conceit boils down to this: All the different particles and forces in the universe are composed of wriggling strands of energy whose properties depend solely on the mode of their vibration. Understand the properties of those strands, the thinking once went, and you will understand why the universe is the way it is. Recent work, most notably by Joseph Polchinski of the University of California, Santa Barbara, has dashed that hope. The latest version of string theory (now rechristened M-theory for reasons that even the founder of M-theory cannot explain) does not yield a single model of physics. Rather, it yields a gargantuan number of models: about 10500, give or take a few trillion.

Not one to despair over lemons, Susskind finds lemonade in that insane-sounding result. He proposes that those 10500 possibilities represent not a flaw in string theory but a profound insight into the nature of reality. Each potential model, he suggests, corresponds to an actual place -- another universe as real as our own. In the spirit of kooky science and good science fiction, he coins new names to go with these new possibilities. He calls the enormous range of environments governed by all the possible laws of physics the "Landscape." The near-infinite collection of pocket universes described by those various laws becomes the "megaverse."

Susskind eagerly embraces the megaverse interpretation because it offers a way to blow right through the intelligent design challenge. If every type of universe exists, there is no need to invoke God (or an unknown master theory of physics) to explain why one of them ended up like ours. Furthermore, it is inevitable that we would find ourselves in a universe well suited to life, since life can arise only in those types of universes. This circular-sounding argument -- that the universe we inhabit is fine-tuned for human biology because otherwise we would not be here to see it -- is known as the Anthropic Principle and is reviled by many cosmologists as a piece of vacuous sophistry. But if ours is just one of a near-infinite variety of universes, the Anthropic Principle starts to sound more reasonable, akin to saying that we find ourselves on Earth rather than on Jupiter because Earth has the mild temperatures and liquid water needed for our kind of life.

Although Susskind's title and central motivation are drawn from this fascinating debate over design, most of "The Cosmic Landscape" is structured not around philosophy but around the nuts-and-bolts concepts of modern particle physics. Here Susskind's long years as a theorist and lecturer at Stanford University prove a mixed blessing. He is a good-humored and enthusiastic tour guide but he clearly does not know how baffling he sounds much of the time. He coaxes the reader along with rhetorical questions and charmingly corny allegories. Still, this isn't much help when it comes to material like "Let's suppose that the Calabi Yau manifold has a topology that is rich enough to allow 500 distinct doughnut holes through which the fluxes wind. The flux through each hole must be an integer, so a string of 500 integers has to be specified." Um, is this going to be on the exam?

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Susskind's insider perspective also lends an air of smugness to the whole affair. He falls prey to the common error of Whig history: interpreting past events as if they were inevitable stepping stones to the present. He allows remarkably little doubt about string theory considering that it has, as yet, not a whit of observational support. "As much as I would very much like to balance things by explaining the opposing side, I simply can't find that other side," he writes in his concluding chapter.

Such braggadocio begs for an anthropic question of its own. Humans have been around in more or less their present form for about 150,000 years; detailed stories of the origin of the world run as far back as the first written languages and surely existed in oral form much earlier still. How likely is it that this generation, right now, is the lucky one that has discovered the final answer?

I'm not a physicist, but if I were putting money on the table, I wouldn't take those odds.

'The Cosmic Landscape,' by Leonard Susskind Corey S. Powell is a senior editor at Discover magazine and author of "God in the Equation: How Einstein Transformed Religion."
 
Piezoe do you understand how finely tuned the standard model of physics is.
20 constants to 30 decimal places and the Cosmological constant to 122 decimal places.
Jem, all numbers from theoretical computation are infinitely precise! It is only numbers that come from experimental observation that contain imprecision. This I can assure you of with some considerable confidence as I am myself an experimental scientist and my daughter is a theoretical mathematician (one of Thurston's students; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Thurston).
 
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Hey jem..this is what you do.

grasping20at20straws.jpg
 
the theoretical computations of the extreme fine tuning of the standard model of physics have been observed and proven in many ways. Most recently the extreme fine tuning of the standard model of physics was proven at CERN when the Higgs Boson was predicted and found.

Why do you keep going over the same ground. Its like you don't understand and unwilling to let recent scientific facts bother your 1050s beliefs.

Luckily, your folly is not imputed to your daughter or her professor. Perhaps you need to as her what she knows about the fine tuning of the constants.

Piezoe you can accept the fact that the vast majority of physicists in the field accept the extreme fine tunings without concluding a Tuner. You can just go with faith in a mulitiverse. its OK... you don't have to put yourself in a looney bin just because there is some evidence of design.

Jem, all numbers from theoretical computation are infinitely precise! It is only numbers that come from experimental observation that contain imprecision. This I can assure you of with some considerable confidence as I am myself an experimental scientist and my daughter is a theoretical mathematician (one of Thurston's students; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Thurston).
 
To dispel notions of so called fine tuning, it really only requires the natural conditions of the Universe be such that as a consequence, all of its parameters are no more than inevitable.

The Standard Model does not measure the mass of Higgs boson. It is not a value that can be properly predicted/calculated by the SM.
That reason alone (apart from a few others) means the Standard Model is not "extremely fine tuned".

There is no science to show the universe IS fine tuned or designed by anything other than itself.
 
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half correct -
Susskind and many others do agree that one explanation for the extreme fine tunings of our constants could turn out to be a theory of everything. although scientists finding the reason for the inevitability (the theory of everything) might actually support the idea of a Creator.

2. sometimes I wonder why you bullshit so much Stu. Now I admit you might come up with some super technical explanation that since it is the Higgs that gives mass it does not technically have mass itself or something cool like that... let me tell you I have read that Higgs was predicted by the standard model and CERN's experiments confirmed it. Here is CERN itself...


On 4 July 2012, the ATLAS and CMS experiments at CERN's Large Hadron Collider announced they had each observed a new particle in the mass region around 126 GeV. This particle is consistent with the Higgs boson predicted by the Standard Model. The Higgs boson, as proposed within the Standard Model, is the simplest manifestation of the Brout-Englert-Higgs mechanism. Other types of Higgs bosons are predicted by other theories that go beyond the Standard Model.

On 8 October 2013 the Nobel prize in physics(link is external) was awarded jointly to François Englert and Peter Higgs "for the theoretical discovery of a mechanism that contributes to our understanding of the origin of mass of subatomic particles, and which recently was confirmed through the discovery of the predicted fundamental particle, by the ATLAS and CMS experiments at CERN's Large Hadron Collider."

https://home.cern/topics/higgs-boson




To dispel notions of so called fine tuning, it really only requires the natural conditions of the Universe be such that as a consequence, all of its parameters are no more than inevitable.

The Standard Model does not measure the mass of Higgs boson. It is not a value that can be properly predicted/calculated by the SM.
That reason alone (apart from a few others) means the Standard Model is not "extremely fine tuned".

There is no science to show the universe IS fine tuned or designed by anything other than itself.
 
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