Evolution - A Weak Argument for the Anti-Supernatural?

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:


The point is that the coefficients such as the electromagnetic force, stong nuclear force, weak nuclear force and about forty others all were birthed at the singularity within very tight ranges tuned perfectly for creating this accretion that made life possible.
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Clearly you have no clue what you're talking about. Let me repeat, the forces you listed above are NOT "coefficients." And there are NOT forty of these forces.

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

I hate to tell you but you've finally met a Christian who really loves science. I'm not perfect and make some mistakes but this time I'm right. Paul Davies, a skeptic, is the one who first began finding some of these. Since then other astronomers have added to the list.

Notice that these are just the astrophysical constants. There are many more similar constraints on our solar system.

Anyway, here is a list of about 30 for your perusal that I have actually posted on et before. But, believe it or not, there are now more than 40. And keep in mind that all of these are in a tight range or bandwidth:


(a list of some fundamental constants, some physical observables, and their ratios)
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You may love science but you clearly don't know it.

The "coefficients" you listed are not all independent of each other. Either you stick to the fundamental constants - there are only a handful of them - or you freely combine them into ratios, then there are much more than 40. It's more like tens of thousands of these ratios. It shows again that you have no clue what you're quoting from others.
 
Quote from james_bond_3rd:

Clearly you have no clue what you're talking about. Let me repeat, the forces you listed above are NOT "coefficients." And there are NOT forty of these forces.



You may love science but you clearly don't know it.

The "coefficients" you listed are not all independent of each other. Either you stick to the fundamental constants - there are only a handful of them - or you freely combine them into ratios, then there are much more than 40. It's more like tens of thousands of these ratios. It shows again that you have no clue what you're quoting from others.
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Okay, I see what you are saying. Yes, they are not all "forces". Call them parameters. Call them coefficients. Call them Panini Linguini - I don't care. And, yes, there is more under the covers.

But you're still nitpicking words and avoiding my point: the universe for all intents and purposes looks created. It popped out of a singularity perfectly tuned for life.

And there's no trickery and deceit going on here with me fudging with ratios that I know nothing about. The Big Bang is the worst nightmare for the diehard materialist because it is quite "Genesis-like". Out of nothing if you will exploded a universe with all its Panini Linguini set up so that rocky planets would form.
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

Really? Then I wonder why nobody has yet to claim the $1 Million:

http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/38/31/

Wouldn't it be easy money? Or are the psychics in question just too darned spiritual for that kind of materialism?
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First of all, I believe one thing very similar to you: there are no "psychic powers" such as ESP, Clairvoyancy, etc. that operate in each of us independently of all other entities. That is why results in these kind of tests are weak. So, yes, I agree that right now there is no good proof for this kind of assertion. I mean let's face it: if psychics were truly clairvoyant, they would all be driving Ferrari's not living in the run down houses that we so often see them advertising from.

But, that said, Randi's prize money completely ignores the most important and verifiable form of the supernatural, which I will call the spirit-based paranormal activity (as well as NDE's and OOB's).

What do I mean? Well, the problem is that most supernatural activity comes from spiritual beings. These beings could care less about a million dollars and prize money and, of course, have their own agendas.

And this leads to the problem for the typical atheist/skeptic: you cannot verify this in a lab. These beings do what they want when they want. They're not going to submit to clinical lab conditions!

Does that mean you cannot verify them scientifically? Of course not. But you have to be able to use witnesses. It is no different than a court of law. We like it when we have the DNA or fiber evidence. But very often it comes down to researching the witnesses.

And there is imo overwhelming and solid evidence for an afterlife, spiritual beings and the supernatural if you are willing to objectively accept witness testimony as you would in court.

Or you - and I mean "you" in general not you personally - can hide your head in the sand and ignore it because it makes you feel more comfortable. Not everyone likes the idea of God and other beings in other "dimensions". But they're there...
 
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

...What do I mean? Well, the problem is that most supernatural activity comes from spiritual beings. These beings could care less about a million dollars and prize money and, of course, have their own agendas.

And this leads to the problem for the typical atheist/skeptic: you cannot verify this in a lab. These beings do what they want when they want. They're not going to submit to clinical lab conditions!
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Perhaps someone should communicate to these "beings" how many hungry, innocent children $1 Million can feed for a while. How self-indulgent and capricious of them that not even one such "being" sees fit to communicate with a psychic under controlled conditions to help feed the hungry children.

Also, it's fascinating how these "beings" regularly and repeatedly present themselves all over the place EXCEPT in a lab where their presence could be objectively verified. WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Slippery little buggers, eh?
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

Perhaps someone should communicate to these "beings" how many hungry, innocent children $1 Million can feed for a while. How self-indulgent and capricious of them that not even one such "being" sees fit to communicate with a psychic under controlled conditions to help feed the hungry children.

Also, it's fascinating how these "beings" regularly and repeatedly present themselves all over the place EXCEPT in a lab where their presence could be objectively verified. WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Slippery little buggers, eh?
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Remember that you're not talking to a New Ager here. As a Christian I think most of them are working for the Wrong Team: yes, the Dark Side. And so imo they're not interested in orphans and widows. And I might add that I think the evidence does not contradict substantially the general Christian viewpoint.
 
Quote from Thunderdog:


Also, it's fascinating how these "beings" regularly and repeatedly present themselves all over the place EXCEPT in a lab where their presence could be objectively verified. WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Slippery little buggers, eh?
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First of all, how many labs are there on planet earth? A few hundred? So that's probably a hundredth of a hundredth of a hundredth of the surface area of the earth.

But, more importantly, how many people are sitting around in these labs? A few hundred probably. So what are the odds that they are going to see something? Probably a hundredth of a hundredth of a hundredth. (And on the remote chance that a lab technician did see something, I would guess you would find a reason to dismiss it anyway.)

Look let's take a non-clinical example. Both President Reagan and Carter had profound experiences with UFO sightings. Now, from my standpoint, I think all UFO sightings are "spiritual" in nature because we've never picked up a credible piece of physical evidence from any of the legitimate sightings.

So go with me on this just for a minute and suppose that these are actually spiritual-being-based phenomenon and that both Reagan and Carter actually something along these lines. Do you really think you can try to reproduce this in a lab?!? I don't even understand what you're getting at.

But you can't just turn your back on the facts: two of the presidents of the most powerful nation on earth have seen what they thought was a UFO. And in both cases they saw what they saw clearly and it made a significant impact on them. These are reliable witnesses that had nothing to gain and everything to lose by talking about this.

So I'm just not seeing your point...
 
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

Remember that you're not talking to a New Ager here. As a Christian I think most of them are working for the Wrong Team: yes, the Dark Side. And so imo they're not interested in orphans and widows. And I might add that I think the evidence does not contradict substantially the general Christian viewpoint.
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Well, then, if they are working for the Dark Side, why don't they hook up with a like-minded psychic, collect the $1 Million, and use it to help them spread their bad seed? You would think that these "beings," being supernatural and all, would have a practical side. Sure it's only a million, and no doubt they deal in billions and trillions, but why not get one of their novices or apprentices to pick up this pocket change? Perhaps it's their unpredictability that makes them so lovable.

P.S. You said that you think "most" of them are working for the "Wrong Team." Surely one of the good guy "beings" should pick it up and have it put to good use before it possibly falls one day into the hands of...the Dark Side.
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

Well, then, if they are working for the Dark Side, why don't they hook up with a like-minded psychic, collect the $1 Million, and use it to help them spread their bad seed? You would think that these "beings," being supernatural and all, would have a practical side. Sure it's only a million, and no doubt they deal in billions and trillions, but why not get one of their novices or apprentices to pick up this pocket change? Perhaps it's their unpredictability that makes them so lovable.

P.S. You said that you think "most" of them are working for the "Wrong Team." Surely one of the good guy "beings" should pick it up and have it put to good use before it possibly falls one day into the hands of...the Dark Side.
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Okay, imagine just for a second that I am right and that there is a Satan with him minions and God with his angels. The earth is a crucible of free will and spiritual warfare with men's souls hanging in the balance. Now do you really think that a demon or an angel is going to care about a million dollars? Seriously. What is a demon going to do with a million dollars? I just don't understand what you're getting at.

And if you don't like my Christian scenario, then pick a New Age or Hindu scenario and you'll come up with a similar conclusion: there is no reason for a non-physical being to have any interest in a stupid million dollar prize!
 
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

First of all, how many labs are there on planet earth? A few hundred? So that's probably a hundredth of a hundredth of a hundredth of the surface area of the earth.

But, more importantly, how many people are sitting around in these labs? A few hundred probably. So what are the odds that they are going to see something? Probably a hundredth of a hundredth of a hundredth. (And on the remote chance that a lab technician did see something, I would guess you would find a reason to dismiss it anyway.)

Look let's take a non-clinical example. Both President Reagan and Carter had profound experiences with UFO sightings. Now, from my standpoint, I think all UFO sightings are "spiritual" in nature because we've never picked up a credible piece of physical evidence from any of the legitimate sightings.

So go with me on this just for a minute and suppose that these are actually spiritual-being-based phenomenon and that both Reagan and Carter actually something along these lines. Do you really think you can try to reproduce this in a lab?!? I don't even understand what you're getting at.

But you can't just turn your back on the facts: two of the presidents of the most powerful nation on earth have seen what they thought was a UFO. And in both cases they saw what they saw clearly and it made a significant impact on them. These are reliable witnesses that had nothing to gain and everything to lose by talking about this.

So I'm just not seeing your point...
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UFO means unidentified. It doesn't necessarily mean spiritual, paranormal or any other such thing. Just unidentified.

As for yours numbers game, playing with stats, don't kid yourself. You're a believer irrespective of the tangible, "worldly" facts. Leave it at that.
 
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