Even with inflation in 1970. It only took 1 worker
- Thread starter KINGOFSHORTS
- Start date
Thanks Volente for checking my numbers earlier; I just totally spitballed the tax number and obviously there will be regional and state differences on taxes and living expenses. Move that 30k income family to CA and see how screwed they are.
Basically we all seem to agree that you can survive on that $$ (although nobody seems to agree on much else in this thread) but you will be facing some tough questions on what you will do without to make it from month to month without running up a bunch of credit cards.
We've also come up with a list of culprits plotting the downfall of the one income (non ceo) family, including foreigners, women in the workplace, corporate greed, big government and the Fed.
Unfortunately the culprit is probably F) All of the above. Face it, whatever the job, there are 10 people in China or India who are willing to do it for a fraction of the US rate, not only that but they will probably do it for way more hours/week than their US counterparts.
Women in the workplace? Yeah I suppose that has increased the labor pool significantly, although I'm not sure how far underway that trend was already by the 70's.
Corporate Greed. A quick review of the industrial revolution should give a clue on this. Unchecked, big business has shown how ruthless it can be; They are in a gradual process of taking back everything that labor stole from them a few generations ago. Its just that now they give a smile, a handshake and a pinkslip while they outsource your job, rather than using an axe-handle to give you a good crack when you step out of line. Thats the "kinder, gentler" form of Capitalism.
Big government and the Fed seem to be one in the same. Gutless politicians can't say to your face that they need more of what you have; its easier to use the backdoor and have the Fed steal the value of your dollar. Its looking like big government will just keep getting bigger, as they keep promising a big free lunch, and we keep lining up for more.
Not sure where I'm going with all this. I can see both sides of the bickering, the "things suck" and the "quit whining" contingents both make some valid points.
That 30K one-income family? Another year or so like the last, and they will probably be thanking their lucky stars to have a roof over their heads and a few packs of ramen noodles in the cupboard.
Basically we all seem to agree that you can survive on that $$ (although nobody seems to agree on much else in this thread) but you will be facing some tough questions on what you will do without to make it from month to month without running up a bunch of credit cards.
We've also come up with a list of culprits plotting the downfall of the one income (non ceo) family, including foreigners, women in the workplace, corporate greed, big government and the Fed.
Unfortunately the culprit is probably F) All of the above. Face it, whatever the job, there are 10 people in China or India who are willing to do it for a fraction of the US rate, not only that but they will probably do it for way more hours/week than their US counterparts.
Women in the workplace? Yeah I suppose that has increased the labor pool significantly, although I'm not sure how far underway that trend was already by the 70's.
Corporate Greed. A quick review of the industrial revolution should give a clue on this. Unchecked, big business has shown how ruthless it can be; They are in a gradual process of taking back everything that labor stole from them a few generations ago. Its just that now they give a smile, a handshake and a pinkslip while they outsource your job, rather than using an axe-handle to give you a good crack when you step out of line. Thats the "kinder, gentler" form of Capitalism.
Big government and the Fed seem to be one in the same. Gutless politicians can't say to your face that they need more of what you have; its easier to use the backdoor and have the Fed steal the value of your dollar. Its looking like big government will just keep getting bigger, as they keep promising a big free lunch, and we keep lining up for more.
Not sure where I'm going with all this. I can see both sides of the bickering, the "things suck" and the "quit whining" contingents both make some valid points.
That 30K one-income family? Another year or so like the last, and they will probably be thanking their lucky stars to have a roof over their heads and a few packs of ramen noodles in the cupboard.
The main culprit for the stagnation (and I think we can safely dispose of the decline myth after the discussion we had so far) of working class wages is a lack proper education policy in the US.
Instead, 30 years of laissez-faire education policy left the country with high teenage pregnancy, high teenage unemployment and science educational performance slightly ahead of Turkey and Mexico (http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2008016).
How can you expect the number #1 economy in the world to keep increasing it's middle class wealth year by year when there is no focused investment in human capital? When many middle class can't spell right, don't speak any secondary languages in a globalized world?
Countries such as Canada, Norway or Korea invested heavily into education, especially for the poor and unprivileged. They speak 2-3 languages, have some of the best literacy, math and science skills in the world. And today they're all competing for the same bread crumbs.
Addressing "income distribution" via taxation without addressing the US education malaise will only temporarily work on the symptoms, not the root of the problem.
Instead, 30 years of laissez-faire education policy left the country with high teenage pregnancy, high teenage unemployment and science educational performance slightly ahead of Turkey and Mexico (http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2008016).
How can you expect the number #1 economy in the world to keep increasing it's middle class wealth year by year when there is no focused investment in human capital? When many middle class can't spell right, don't speak any secondary languages in a globalized world?
Countries such as Canada, Norway or Korea invested heavily into education, especially for the poor and unprivileged. They speak 2-3 languages, have some of the best literacy, math and science skills in the world. And today they're all competing for the same bread crumbs.
Addressing "income distribution" via taxation without addressing the US education malaise will only temporarily work on the symptoms, not the root of the problem.
indexer, sandy... and pilotboy had some very good posts in here. It's a shame that ET is full of so many libertrollians that it is almost impossible to have a sane conversation about anything.
If you would like to know more about why and how middle and working class wages have been suppressed, read "America Since 1980" by Dean Baker (you may have seen him on CNN etc., very good economist and an all around decent guy).
He also has a book for our friends like trader666 available as a free download here:
http://www.conservativenannystate.org/
Basically what it explains is that in a true libertarian world with no government interference, middle class wages would be significantly higher, and the salaries of professionals (aka upper class GOVERNMENT-PROTECTED-UNIONS) and CEOs would be significantly lower.
It might be hard for trader666 to wrap his head around the fact that the government does actually take from the productive and give to the unproductive, just like in an Ayn Rand novel, but that in real life CEOs, doctors, lawyers, etc. are the "looters" and the vast majority of non-unionized non-connected workers are actually the productive ones.
If you would like to know more about why and how middle and working class wages have been suppressed, read "America Since 1980" by Dean Baker (you may have seen him on CNN etc., very good economist and an all around decent guy).
He also has a book for our friends like trader666 available as a free download here:
http://www.conservativenannystate.org/
Basically what it explains is that in a true libertarian world with no government interference, middle class wages would be significantly higher, and the salaries of professionals (aka upper class GOVERNMENT-PROTECTED-UNIONS) and CEOs would be significantly lower.
It might be hard for trader666 to wrap his head around the fact that the government does actually take from the productive and give to the unproductive, just like in an Ayn Rand novel, but that in real life CEOs, doctors, lawyers, etc. are the "looters" and the vast majority of non-unionized non-connected workers are actually the productive ones.
The people here talking about people making their own lives have a good point...
... if the higher education in the US was free.
Without proper and affordable education, working hard might not be as productive as you think you want it to be.
You can only work so hard and getting nowhere before you start getting demoralized.
... if the higher education in the US was free.
Without proper and affordable education, working hard might not be as productive as you think you want it to be.
You can only work so hard and getting nowhere before you start getting demoralized.
Nevertheless, Dr. Miller said, her clients are mostly the type of people who are willing to spend money on their pets. Also, her practice expenses have decreased because she refinanced a loan and an associate wanted to work fewer hours. In addition, she has instituted a hiring freeze to help avoid layoffs.
cross the country, though, practitioners are responding to the economy by hunkering down for the rest of 2009.
"I think people are prepared that this will last a while," Dr. Felsted said.
sounds like their hiring