Even with inflation in 1970. It only took 1 worker

[forextrades]

Quote from bwolinsky:


Those of you who don't think you need to go to college have already missed the boat. If you didn't make that decision right after High School, trust me, it will be such a black mark to follow you around during whatever miniscule career you think you might have. I guess no one ever explained that there is a ceiling without college education. When you hit that ceiling, it'll be for that big promotion, and it's around $40k.

That's not completely true. There are plenty of people who go back to school after 10-15 years and substantially increase their earnings potential. I guess it really depends on the type of job or industry you are working in.

If you decide that you want to be a doctor at age 30, then yes, you probably pissed away the opportunity. How many talented software engineers or IT professionals were pulled out of college early during the late 90s boom to work for dot-com companies? I'm sure a few have decided to go back and finish the degree as of late, but the work experience was likely invaluable.

I work in the construction industry and hold a bachelors degree that's considered a sub-discipline of civil engineering (construction management). I earned the degree after finishing high school with no breaks in between.

Now, I'm 24, a project manager and make about $50k. However, there are PMs a few years older than me with Business Admin degrees who make $100k+. Why? Because they held off and went back to school after getting that real world work experience.

Management likes to see a combination of the two. The 30 year old recent college grad likely has the upper hand on the 22 year old recent college grad. The 22 y/o probably never held a real job and has expectations way too high in terms of salary.

 

[my7tvette]

Quote from bwolinsky:

but you can tip the scales in your favor by increasing your knowledge.

Exactly, "you" can, but not everyone can. If everyone in the country had college educations, sure it would be great for the nation overall, and it would be great for lots of individuals, but the fact is we would still have millions of low-end jobs that needed to be filled. You would just have many more highly educated clerks, garbage men, bus drivers, etc. What would that "worth every penny" college education be valued at if every person had one.

I would never argue against getting as much education as possible, as early as possible. I'm also fairly confident that some people will naturally reap the benefits of their education, and others would just be squandering five years of their lives.

 

[Trader666]

Back to the original topic... it's absolutely NOT true that a family with one "breadwinner" can't have as good a standard of living now as during the 70s... provided there is a willingness to work hard, make sacrifices and be realistic. By realism I mean you might, God forbid, have to work your way through school or take out student loans or enter a profession where you don't make the big bucks right away. Anyone who feels they're entitled to start out at the top deserves only one thing -- disappointment.

I gave the example of becoming a vet. Here are more. I know a PA in her early 40s who started at the bottom of the nursing food chain but who worked her way up. Can't deal with bedpans? There's a huge demand for physical therapists. Don't like medicine at all? There's such a shortage of math and science teachers that if you're wiling to teach in some areas for a few years after certification, they'll pay your way through school. Another good source of money for education is the military. It's also something one can go into with no experience and make a career of. Or use as a bridge to another career like law enforcement. Don't like that but you like to work with your hands? Then become a plumber or electrician. The possibilities are endless for those with a realistic attitude about laying the groundwork for a career as opposed to just getting a job.

 

[Sandybestdog]

Quote from Trader666:
Back to the original topic... it's absolutely NOT true that a family with one "breadwinner" can't have as good a standard of living now as during the 70s... provided there is a willingness to work hard, make sacrifices and be realistic. By realism I mean you might, God forbid, have to work your way through school or take out student loans or enter a profession where you don't make the big bucks right away. Anyone who feels they're entitled to start out at the top deserves only one thing -- disappointment.

I gave the example of becoming a vet. Here are more. I know a PA in her early 40s who started at the bottom of the nursing food chain but who worked her way up. Can't deal with bedpans? There's a huge demand for physical therapists. Don't like medicine at all? There's such a shortage of math and science teachers that if you're wiling to teach in some areas for a few years after certification, they'll pay your way through school. Another good source of money for education is the military. It's also something one can go into with no experience and make a career of. Or use as a bridge to another career like law enforcement. Don't like that but you like to work with your hands? Then become a plumber or electrician. The possibilities are endless for those with a realistic attitude about laying the groundwork for a career as opposed to just getting a job.

Ok I have some experience with this. My mom never worked. My dad had his own carpentry/home improvement business for over 20 years. He did very good work and always worked 50+ hours a week. He had good customers and never went without work. I can say that we struggled. We went without health insurance for years. In 20 years each of my parents have only had 2 used cars. My moms last minivan had over 250k miles. I have a brother and sister and we have lived in the same small townhouse for our whole lives.

10 years ago my dad realized he couldn’t do the manual labor forever and since my brother and I had no desire to take over the business, he went back to school and took some computer courses. After a a year or so, he was able to get a computer job and worked his carpentry business a couple days a week to make up some of the difference. Now, the company he’s at has expanded a little and he was some promotions and some more money. He still has to work his side business a few days a month, but not as much. I’m not sure what exactly he does, but I think he basically works for a government contractor and makes sure that the network and everybody’s computer is working. Also maintaining security is very big. So I can comfortable say that this is definitely not an entry level job anybody can get.

Despite the fact that he is what you can label a “skilled” proffession, we have struggled. My parents just started their 401k a few years ago, which dropped about 30% last year. We were “middle class” enough that us kids never qualified for financial aid for college, but not “rich” enough for our parents to save for our college. Of course back then parents didn’t think about that, probably because they were able to go to college on a partial scholarship and work part time to pay for the rest and their living expenses. Nowadays white males don’t get financial aid unless they get a 1500 on the SAT’s. So that leaves massive student loans and credit cards to pay for living expense, because working part time while going to school definitely isn’t going to cut it. Also my parents had the benefit of buying our townhouse for 60k 24 years ago and their college degrees, which were needed to get my dad’s current job, even though it had nothing to do with computers. Also my dad has got hired right in the middle of the tech boom and pretty much been with the same company since then. He was lucky he didn’t get laid off.

So given the advantages my parents had and the fact that they have struggled even so, somebody starting out today in the same areas will have it much harder and someone with no skills basically is doomed to poverty. People can’t buy 60k houses anymore, they cost 300 now. Health insurance is going up 15% a year.

So given this real life scenario, we are all sick of you and Bwolinsky calling us hard working people who are trying to get ahead Communists. You haven’t focused on one problem everyday people face nowadays. So why don’t you guys just tell all of us poor ol’ worthless souls how you made it. How did you go to college and pay for it? What did you buy your house for? And what do you do now and how did you get there. Otherwise I’m just going to assume you’re a speech writer for Sean Hannity and write you off. Your rosey scenario’s are just not the case.

 

[Trader666]

I'm going to address each paragraph in turn.

It's absolutely FALSE that white males need to score 1500 on their SATs to get financial aid and your whining about student loans and dismissal of working while going to school tells me you're unwilling to do whatever it takes which means you deserve to be where you are now. You've also conveniently ignored the sources of money for school that I brought up in the post which you quoted... but I'm confident that if you go back and look at them you can find plenty of excuses for why they won't suit you.

The median home price in the United States is $170,300 and going down.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/business/economy/26econ.html?em

Show me where I called anyone a communist. You're not serious about getting ahead when you focus only on your problems and dismiss solutions just because they're difficult. Nobody's entitled to an easy life. Despite your whining your standard of living now is higher that that of the vast majority of humans who have ever lived so get a grip. As for the rest of your questions, I will tell you that after living like you've described how you live for about a year, I got so sick of it that no amount of work was too much to get out of it... you mentioned 50+ hours a week... sometimes I worked well over 2X that. And I paid for my own school. Bottom line is I did the stuff in my post that you dismissed which still works today... and if you're unwilling to do any of it that's your choice but don't expect anyone to feel sorry for you other than family and those like you who are also unwilling to sacrifice to improve their circumstances but who feel entitled to more anyway.

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Nowadays white males don’t get financial aid unless they get a 1500 on the SAT’s. So that leaves massive student loans and credit cards to pay for living expense, because working part time while going to school definitely isn’t going to cut it.

People can’t buy 60k houses anymore, they cost 300 now. Health insurance is going up 15% a year.

So given this real life scenario, we are all sick of you and Bwolinsky calling us hard working people who are trying to get ahead Communists. You haven’t focused on one problem everyday people face nowadays. So why don’t you guys just tell all of us poor ol’ worthless souls how you made it. How did you go to college and pay for it? What did you buy your house for? And what do you do now and how did you get there. Otherwise I’m just going to assume you’re a speech writer for Sean Hannity and write you off. Your rosey scenario’s are just not the case.

 

[forextrades]

Anyone can get financial aid as long as they're considered independent or 24+ years old. Community colleges in California offer courses at $20/credit, which is extremely cheap. You could complete an entire 2-year degree for less than $2k including the price of books and school supplies.

Or you can take CLEP/Dantes examinations to test out of the first 2 years of a bachelors degree at $75 per exam (3 credit course). Some state schools allow this.

However, women and minorities do have access to more scholarships.

 

[allaboutmoney]

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Ok I have some experience with this. My mom never worked. My dad had his own carpentry/home improvement business for over 20 years. He did very good work and always worked 50+ hours a week. He had good customers and never went without work. I can say that we struggled. We went without health insurance for years. In 20 years each of my parents have only had 2 used cars. My moms last minivan had over 250k miles. I have a brother and sister and we have lived in the same small townhouse for our whole lives.

10 years ago my dad realized he couldn’t do the manual labor forever and since my brother and I had no desire to take over the business, he went back to school and took some computer courses. After a a year or so, he was able to get a computer job and worked his carpentry business a couple days a week to make up some of the difference. Now, the company he’s at has expanded a little and he was some promotions and some more money. He still has to work his side business a few days a month, but not as much. I’m not sure what exactly he does, but I think he basically works for a government contractor and makes sure that the network and everybody’s computer is working. Also maintaining security is very big. So I can comfortable say that this is definitely not an entry level job anybody can get.

Despite the fact that he is what you can label a “skilled” proffession, we have struggled. My parents just started their 401k a few years ago, which dropped about 30% last year. We were “middle class” enough that us kids never qualified for financial aid for college, but not “rich” enough for our parents to save for our college. Of course back then parents didn’t think about that, probably because they were able to go to college on a partial scholarship and work part time to pay for the rest and their living expenses. Nowadays white males don’t get financial aid unless they get a 1500 on the SAT’s. So that leaves massive student loans and credit cards to pay for living expense, because working part time while going to school definitely isn’t going to cut it. Also my parents had the benefit of buying our townhouse for 60k 24 years ago and their college degrees, which were needed to get my dad’s current job, even though it had nothing to do with computers. Also my dad has got hired right in the middle of the tech boom and pretty much been with the same company since then. He was lucky he didn’t get laid off.

So given the advantages my parents had and the fact that they have struggled even so, somebody starting out today in the same areas will have it much harder and someone with no skills basically is doomed to poverty. People can’t buy 60k houses anymore, they cost 300 now. Health insurance is going up 15% a year.

So given this real life scenario, we are all sick of you and Bwolinsky calling us hard working people who are trying to get ahead Communists. You haven’t focused on one problem everyday people face nowadays. So why don’t you guys just tell all of us poor ol’ worthless souls how you made it. How did you go to college and pay for it? What did you buy your house for? And what do you do now and how did you get there. Otherwise I’m just going to assume you’re a speech writer for Sean Hannity and write you off. Your rosey scenario’s are just not the case.

don't worry Obama will fix everything

no seriously, Obama is just a f_king joke

nothing's gonna get fixed

but you can rest assured things are going to get worse

once enough people have lost everything and anything they had, inflation is going to kick in

just wait and see, america is so screwed, and no this is not the 19 hundreds nor is it Japan

this is america falling from first place to second place and so on in a domino effect, pulling out such big numbers out of its ass, eventually the USD will collapse

those who can save america, have no reason to do so, as america does not understand shit let alone how to respect or treat those who are supportive of it, and those who don't know shit are talking about saving america

f_ck i am sure you and the like of you will be suffering even more in a few years time, you will hardly be making enough to just feed yourself

basically you're all in a quicksand, the harder you struggle the deeper you sink

 

[itsame]

Everyone who wants an education.


1. Move to Florida
2. Get a job and rent an apartment (you can get a nice apartment in Tampa for $500 a month, get a room mate also)
3. Work for a year to establish residency
4. Save $200 a month (don't get cable, scrimp for the rest)
4. Apply and go to USF
5. Work 30 hours a week and go to school full-time
6. Pay $130.55 a credit hour in Tampa or go to St. Pete campus for $105.75http://usfweb.usf.edu/controller/cashaccounting/tuitionDiff_2009

7. Pay $ 17,00 for a 4 year degree including inflation plus and additional 5,000 for fees, books and supplies.
8. Borrow less then $4,500 (don't go on spring break)
9. Graduate and get a job for $35,000
10. Don't complain and work hard for 10 years.
11. have kids


ps. no need to be related or connected to the Baldwins

 

[forextrades]

Quote from itsame:

Everyone who wants an education.


1. Move to Florida
2. Get a job and rent an apartment (you can get a nice apartment in Tampa for $500 a month, get a room mate also)
3. Work for a year to establish residency
4. Save $200 a month (don't get cable, scrimp for the rest)
4. Apply and go to USF
5. Work 30 hours a week and go to school full-time
6. Pay $130.55 a credit hour in Tampa or go to St. Pete campus for $105.75http://usfweb.usf.edu/controller/cashaccounting/tuitionDiff_2009

7. Pay $ 17,00 for a 4 year degree including inflation plus and additional 5,000 for fees, books and supplies.
8. Borrow less then $4,500 (don't go on spring break)
9. Graduate and get a job for $35,000
10. Don't complain and work hard for 10 years.
11. have kids


ps. no need to be related or connected to the Baldwins

Number 9 might be the most difficult.

 

[Sandybestdog]

Quote from Trader666:
I'm going to address each paragraph in turn.

It's absolutely FALSE that white males need to score 1500 on their SATs to get financial aid and your whining about student loans and dismissal of working while going to school tells me you're unwilling to do whatever it takes which means you deserve to be where you are now. You've also conveniently ignored the sources of money for school that I brought up in the post which you quoted... but I'm confident that if you go back and look at them you can find plenty of excuses for why they won't suit you.

All I know is when I first went to community college, the only thing I qualified for was a one time $1000 scholarship. I didn’t get anything else. What Forextrades said is interesting because a month ago I went to a career training school to see what they offered and I filled out the Fafsa and it said I qualified for a $3000 Pell grant. I was surprised at this and then my sister said it was because once you turn 24, you are no longer attached to your parents qualifications. She filled it out, and was given nothing. My parents have paid taxes for years, and then the gov doesn’t give us anything. It probably all goes to those student visa’s. I am going to start looking to see if I can use that Pell grant for the community college. If I can, I’m going to seriously look into going back.

I’m not sure if you misunderstood me, but I never meant to suggest that people not work while in college. I worked 30 hours a week and passed the life and health insurance license during my 2 semesters in college.

Quote from Trader666:
The median home price in the United States is $170,300 and going down.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/business/economy/26econ.html?em

Again, I am using real life situations. My parents bought our small townhouse in 1984 for 60k. At the height it was probably worth 360, now probably 300. Where I live 170k might get you a 1 bedroom condo. That’s assuming you don’t find a good deal from a motivated seller. Obviously other parts of the country will be less, but this is where I’m now and it’s all I know.

Quote from Trader666:
Show me where I called anyone a communist.

Quote from makloda:
mccd, that concept is not new, it has been written about in 1867

I have been called a Communist many times on ET by people similar to you. I was just grouping you all together. I’m sorry if offended you. Truth is I’m a soon to be former Republican who didn’t vote for McCain. That’s a discussion for another day.

Quote from Trader666:
You're not serious about getting ahead when you focus only on your problems and dismiss solutions just because they're difficult. Nobody's entitled to an easy life. Despite your whining your standard of living now is higher that that of the vast majority of humans who have ever lived so get a grip. As for the rest of your questions, I will tell you that after living like you've described how you live for about a year, I got so sick of it that no amount of work was too much to get out of it... you mentioned 50+ hours a week... sometimes I worked well over 2X that. And I paid for my own school. Bottom line is I did the stuff in my post that you dismissed which still works today... and if you're unwilling to do any of it that's your choice but don't expect anyone to feel sorry for you other than family and those like you who are also unwilling to sacrifice to improve their circumstances but who feel entitled to more anyway.

You don’t know how hard I’ve worked and what I’ve done in my life. It is too long to list here. I have worked many 80 hour weeks, and so has my dad. During a 6 month period a few years ago I only got 2 days off. Thousands and thousands of dollars I have spent to try to get something going.

You keep talking about us saying we want the “easy” life. I don’t see where I have ever advocated that. What we’re saying is that the way the world is headed, the little guy is constantly swimming upstream and it is getting harder, not easier. The middle class is being eroded. That is where the strength of America lies. If we don’t protect them and the poor are finding it more and more difficult to get into the middle class, we will simply go back 200 years where there was simply the rich and the poor and whatever class you were in, is where you stayed. Ignoring valid arguments about issues and instead telling me that I still live better than most humans in this world is a lousy argument. Just because my life is better than most other people’s, doesn’t mean that I don’t have valid points as to why my life should be better.

But I suppose I did the opposite of you. I always wanted it from the start and no amount of hard work was going to stop me. Unfortunately after 7 years, I have nothing to show for it. I have more tax write offs than I could ever imagine. I have to cheat on my taxes to try to carry over my losses so that if I ever do make money, I can use the losses to offset it. But the truth is I have not even figured out a way to consistently just make $100 a day. So I have gotten to the point where I just don’t bother trying anymore. I still am constantly looking out for new things. I’m trying to make a website now. But I have lost all confidence in being able to get something going because everything I have tried in the past has failed miserably. You can call me a loser or quitter, I really don’t care.