EU constitution vote

Quote from nononsense:

Spike,

The historical context of the adoption of the US constitution and the birth of the Union is far removed from us in time. The same questions could be asked for any major switch to a new system of law, say the French in 1789. By today's standards, there was no question of universal sufferage at all. Whereas in the US, the process of joining has been a process of free choice insofar the individual states were concerned, no such option existed in France. Suffice it to point to the gruesome submission of the rural 'la Vendée'.

All by all, these matters have been decided by the elites of their times. Some truly representative, many not. There is some merit in judging the degree of success of these 18th century adventures in 'Law'. The US has functioned under the same constitution ever since. France is now at its '5th Republic'. So they started over a few times since these days. Many other European states have a much more muddled background in these matters. I'll leave this as an exercise.

Perhaps, the current NON-vote is perhaps an indication of the French having grown a bit savvier than most Europeans in such matters, regardless of the way today's commentators try to explain the phenomenon.



"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.". -- H. L. Mencken

"By means of shrewd lies, unremittingly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell -- and hell heaven. The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed." - Adolph Hitler
More...
geeesh! Nononsense has a Ph.D! :D
 
Quote from aPismoClam:

it will take the antichrist to unite europe now.
More...
I think Antichrist supposedly comes out of Europe, now that you mention it....
 
Would Canadians accept a North American constitution?? Of course no!

The debate moved far beyond what Europe was built to be: a free trade zone. Now European politician want more power, always more and more power.

A constitution is the supreme law. The piece of paper that we, mere mortals, follow blindly almost like we would follow a god.

Now they want a supreme law above and boyond the supreme law of independant countries. In my book, that is EVIL!

Only politician agree with it btw. The population does not.

We, Quebecers, were fooled once by signing the Canadian constitution being told it was for the good of our economy. Look the mess it got us into now :)
 
Quote from mmillar:

Not necessarily. Europe definately has problems, but the vote on the referendum hasn't told the politicians what the people want to do about it. In France, the No vote was run by a combination of Fascists and Communists who wanted entirely different things! The French farmers were the biggest No voters, yet they are the biggest beneficiaries! In Holland, people are (apparently) voting against the fact that there has been very high inflation since the introduction of the Euro. What conclusions can you draw from all that?

Everyone will muddle along for a while until they work out what to do next.
More...

Complained against high inflation since introduction of Euro?

And to think that (until Jan-2005) had appreciated FIFTY PERCENT (50%) against USD (and Yuan and -at a lesser degree- Yen) since 2002.

Which actually damped the rises in commodities (oil etc) and made all the imported stuff (Chinese textiles, Asian electronics, Japanese cars/bikes) 30-50% cheaper for Eurozone consumers than these same goods were 3yr ago.

If in case of Holland it's actually "inflation" that they're voting against, then EU does a terrible marketing its case, compared e.g. to the US. Many Americans (even here in this forum) have been apparently convinced that "core inflation" there runs at 2.5%

Btw I thought the Dutch "NO" was again a case against Turkey:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1519658,00.html
-------------
These fears are being given voice by the maverick politician Geert Wilders, whose opposition to radical Islam, Turkey and the constitution has propelled him ahead of the Government in the polls. Writes Browne:

In a recent speech in Rotterdam, Mr Wilders said: "The political elite wants to admit Turkey to the Union, an Islamic land of millions, that will have an enormous influence on the federal superstate. Because of the new European constitution, Turkey will have more influence on Dutch legislation than the Netherlands itself. It can't become crazier than this."
----------------
 
Quote from mtzianos:

Complained against high inflation since introduction of Euro?

And to think that (until Jan-2005) had appreciated FIFTY PERCENT (50%) against USD (and Yuan and -at a lesser degree- Yen) since 2002.

Which actually damped the rises in commodities (oil etc) and made all the imported stuff (Chinese textiles, Asian electronics, Japanese cars/bikes) 30-50% cheaper for Eurozone consumers than these same goods were 3yr ago.

If in case of Holland it's actually "inflation" that they're voting against, then EU does a terrible marketing its case, compared e.g. to the US. Many Americans (even here in this forum) have been apparently convinced that "core inflation" there runs at 2.5%

Btw I thought the Dutch "NO" was again a case against Turkey:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1519658,00.html
-------------
These fears are being given voice by the maverick politician Geert Wilders, whose opposition to radical Islam, Turkey and the constitution has propelled him ahead of the Government in the polls. Writes Browne:

In a recent speech in Rotterdam, Mr Wilders said: "The political elite wants to admit Turkey to the Union, an Islamic land of millions, that will have an enormous influence on the federal superstate. Because of the new European constitution, Turkey will have more influence on Dutch legislation than the Netherlands itself. It can't become crazier than this."
----------------
More...
Are you indicating this is merely France's way of protesting Islamic extremist terrorists from being admitted into the EU?

Because if you are... I'd believe it.
 
Quote from mtzianos:

Complained against high inflation since introduction of Euro?

And to think that (until Jan-2005) had appreciated FIFTY PERCENT (50%) against USD (and Yuan and -at a lesser degree- Yen) since 2002.

Which actually damped the rises in commodities (oil etc) and made all the imported stuff (Chinese textiles, Asian electronics, Japanese cars/bikes) 30-50% cheaper for Eurozone consumers than these same goods were 3yr ago.

If in case of Holland it's actually "inflation" that they're voting against, then EU does a terrible marketing its case, compared e.g. to the US. Many Americans (even here in this forum) have been apparently convinced that "core inflation" there runs at 2.5%

Btw I thought the Dutch "NO" was again a case against Turkey:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1519658,00.html
-------------
These fears are being given voice by the maverick politician Geert Wilders, whose opposition to radical Islam, Turkey and the constitution has propelled him ahead of the Government in the polls. Writes Browne:

In a recent speech in Rotterdam, Mr Wilders said: "The political elite wants to admit Turkey to the Union, an Islamic land of millions, that will have an enormous influence on the federal superstate. Because of the new European constitution, Turkey will have more influence on Dutch legislation than the Netherlands itself. It can't become crazier than this."
----------------
More...


In the same article there is a quote - "The euro is a big issue. Everything has doubled in price." I have heard the same complaints in Ireland and Spain.

Of course there are lots reasons why people have rejected the EU Constitution (and why others have approved it) - many of them not related to the Constitution itself. The Constituion says nothing about Turkey, for instance, but it seems to be a big part of the No campaign.
 
Quote from mtzianos:


In a recent speech in Rotterdam, Mr Wilders said: "The political elite wants to admit Turkey to the Union, an Islamic land of millions, that will have an enormous influence on the federal superstate. Because of the new European constitution, Turkey will have more influence on Dutch legislation than the Netherlands itself. It can't become crazier than this."
More...
Quote from mmillar:

In the same article there is a quote - "The euro is a big issue. Everything has doubled in price." I have heard the same complaints in Ireland and Spain.

Of course there are lots reasons why people have rejected the EU Constitution (and why others have approved it) - many of them not related to the Constitution itself. The Constituion says nothing about Turkey, for instance, but it seems to be a big part of the No campaign.
More...
Confusion seems to be a constant characteristic of EU countries over the last 200+ years. As for your country Spain, this advanced state of bloody confusion has been masterly described in 'Hommage to Catalonia' by no other than George Orwell himself (a Trostkyist fighter for Spanish democracy). Apparently, things have not changed much since these earlier exercices on the road to democracy. (At the end of his life, Orwell became wise and wrote 'Animal Farm' as his final testament.)

Of course the same point can be made for many others. As for the Dutch, at a time about 10 years after George Orwell wrote his book about Spain, the Dutch government actively operated a Public Emigration Service in helping its fellow Dutchmen 'emigrate' (read flee) from Holland - a country with a population density like Bangladesh. :D Talking about sheer madness, confusion still seems to reign supreme in Old Holland as well. Mr Wilders' above quote seems quite to the point: "It can't become crazier than this." Tonight, we'll hear about the verdict of the people of the Netherlands: 'Je Maintiendrai - Luctor & Emergo'. :)

Visibly, the Ancient Greek poet was right when he wrote that the gods first drive a man into madness before destroying him.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top