EU constitution vote

nononsense,

I'm not defending anything. I'm just pointing out the crap you're talking.

"secret interlocking blood-oath societies" - you're a paranoid halfwit.

In the same breath as talking about referendums across Europe, you're saying there is no democracy in Europe. What on earth is a referendum if not the ultimate expression of democracy?

Spain had a referendum on the Constitution. The Spanish people went out and voted. Why is that so difficult for you?
 
Hey Nononsense, save your keystrokes. It's no use trying to change a closed mind. Pardon the pun, but these guys will be "enlightened" in their own time. Peace, CB
 
Quote from nononsense:

You omit that the Spanish referendum was not quite the same like the French or the Dutch. In fact the third part of the 'constitution' was even hidden from the voters in Spain. The Spanish vote was in comparison a doctored uninformed 'auto da fe'. Nobody in the European press lists this as a sovereign decision by the 'people' of Spain. It's put under the decisions by parliament! Don't try to fool people. :D

Good enough for dopes used to your arse talk (sic).

In fact under true democratic principles, an approval of a constitution should be put to the vote of the people the SAME IDENTICAL text at the SAME TIME. Not the hanky panky you are defending right now.
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The dutch referendum is non binding because it is constitutionally not possible to hold a binding referendum. The main parties will uphold the vote if the turnout is above 30%.

How do you mean the Spanish people did not have access to 'the third' part of the constitution. The constition can be downloaded from the European website in full (in all european languages).

The US constitution was not ratified by all states at the same time, why the hell would the european people have to vote all at once ... ?
 
Quote from TradingWise:



The US constitution was not ratified by all states at the same time, why the hell would the european people have to vote all at once ... ?
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Just out of curiosity, could the blacks vote when the US constitution was ratified? And what about the indians?

No country has the perfect political model. Although every politician of any majority in any country claims their system is perfect.
 
Quote from TradingWise:

The dutch referendum is non binding because it is constitutionally not possible to hold a binding referendum. The main parties will uphold the vote if the turnout is above 30%.

How do you mean the Spanish people did not have access to 'the third' part of the constitution. The constition can be downloaded from the European website in full (in all european languages).

The US constitution was not ratified by all states at the same time, why the hell would the european people have to vote all at once ... ?
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From BBC News:
The BBC's Katya Adler, in Madrid, says the turnout was embarrassingly low for the Spanish prime minister, who had promised to set a shining example for the rest of Europe.

Critics said the government's information campaign had been glitzy - with football and film stars calling for a Yes - but did not do enough to inform voters about the content of the charter.

In a recent poll, nine out of 10 Spaniards admitted they had little idea what the EU constitution is about.


The referendum was non-binding, with parliament set to have the final say.
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Seems not too many bothered surfing on internet to fill in the void.

Your argument about the adoption of the US constitution is historically ludicrous. Stick with it as you seem to like it. :D
 
Quote from spike500:

Just out of curiosity, could the blacks vote when the US constitution was ratified? And what about the indians?
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Spike,

The historical context of the adoption of the US constitution and the birth of the Union is far removed from us in time. The same questions could be asked for any major switch to a new system of law, say the French in 1789. By today's standards, there was no question of universal sufferage at all. Whereas in the US, the process of joining has been a process of free choice insofar the individual states were concerned, no such option existed in France. Suffice it to point to the gruesome submission of the rural 'la Vendée'.

All by all, these matters have been decided by the elites of their times. Some truly representative, many not. There is some merit in judging the degree of success of these 18th century adventures in 'Law'. The US has functioned under the same constitution ever since. France is now at its '5th Republic'. So they started over a few times since these days. Many other European states have a much more muddled background in these matters. I'll leave this as an exercise.

Perhaps, the current NON-vote is perhaps an indication of the French having grown a bit savvier than most Europeans in such matters, regardless of the way today's commentators try to explain the phenomenon.

Quote from spike500:


No country has the perfect political model. Although every politician of any majority in any country claims their system is perfect.
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"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.". -- H. L. Mencken

"By means of shrewd lies, unremittingly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell -- and hell heaven. The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed." - Adolph Hitler
 
Quote from nononsense:
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From BBC News:
The BBC's Katya Adler, in Madrid, says the turnout was embarrassingly low for the Spanish prime minister, who had promised to set a shining example for the rest of Europe.

Critics said the government's information campaign had been glitzy - with football and film stars calling for a Yes - but did not do enough to inform voters about the content of the charter.

In a recent poll, nine out of 10 Spaniards admitted they had little idea what the EU constitution is about.


The referendum was non-binding, with parliament set to have the final say.
More...

Seems not too many bothered surfing on internet to fill in the void.

...
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So what? The Spanish people have a free press. They can read newspapers, they can listen to radio, then can watch television. They can go on the Internet and read anything they want (just as you have done). Every household in Spain received a copy of the EU Consititution. If someone chooses to remain ignorant then that is up to them. If they choose not to vote then that is up to them. That's democracy.
 
Quote from nononsense:


Perhaps, the current NON-vote is perhaps an indication of the French having grown a bit savvier than most Europeans in such matters, regardless of the way today's commentators try to explain the phenomenon.



"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.". -- H. L. Mencken

"By means of shrewd lies, unremittingly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell -- and hell heaven. The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed." - Adolph Hitler
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About the french: they are not savvier, they have politicians that agreed to have a referendum; where i live the referendum was refused. We all know why. Since monday we get publicity on the radio about the importance of saying YES to Europe. We all know why.
The Netherlands will say NO also next weekend. And in my country we would vote NO also IF we could vote.

About Mencken and Hitler: when you reread the text try to think about 9/11 and the way the "continuous islamic danger" was used by Bush to help the weapon industry. Think about the chemical and nuclear danger from Iraq that didn't exist but was invented for other reasons. Think about the scenario to favour the reelection of Bush.

This was the ultimate proof that "The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed."
Every day americans get killed in Iraq as a result of the "Hitler tactic".
 
Quote from spike500:

About the french: they are not savvier, they have politicians that agreed to have a referendum;...
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Yeah spike.

I think the French people are indeed a bit savvier. Only Chirac seems to have goofed when he decided on his referendum. Now, he's making poor Raffarin pay for it (following the best precepts of Mencken).
:D

Be good,
nononsense
 
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