EU constitution vote

[atorchio]

Quote from sKaLpZ:

So what are you saying, that Europe suddenly has 50 cracks? And the euro is toast?

Well, I don't know what I am saying, that is I can't say what german voters would have said... At least I think it is not a problem with France but, perhaps, a problem with the EU.

Or, with "this" EU...

People perceive EU as a body of beaurocrats far from people's daily needs. This is at least partially true, especially for those countries whose living standards are alreay high. On the other hands, countries like Spain, Porutgal and Italy have a lot to thank to the EU.

So, how can you expect to mix those different situations and hope to have a constitution approved?

I heard something interesting on TV yesterday. Some Italian politician saying, EU beaurocracy is based on agriculture and heavy industries. Agriculture alone accounts for half (or more) of the EU budget. This has little to do with today's economies. Let's make EU a challenge for the future, like using finds to enhance scientific research, to fund defence, and people might be more willing to accept it.

 

[nononsense]

Quote from atorchio:

To tell the truth, no other country submitted the treaty to a popular vote. Except Holland, and they are going to vote "no".

Yeah, but in fact this Dutch vote is non-binding! The Dutch parliament can overrule it as it pleases!

Fake democracy 'European style' continues to reign like it did during earlier times. Doesn't seem to bother many Europeans.

Quote from atorchio:

...
I heard something interesting on TV yesterday. Some Italian politician saying, EU beaurocracy is based on agriculture and heavy industries. ...

In truth, a bureaucracy is only based on bureaucrats. In this case it is fostered by a bunch of secret interlocking blood-oath societies (sects) holding their corrupt grip on power for more than 200 years now in many of the EU countries. Lots of litterature exists on this if you are willing to look for it. The ancient thirst for freedom is practically dead among Europeans, replaced by some kind of blind belief in the superiority of their current slavemaster's system, on their TV's passed of for 'public welfare' (Orwell's 'Animal Farm')

 

[nononsense]

Quote from sKaLpZ:

[source]

I know as much about the "European Union Constitution" as I do about the outer layers of dirt on the surface of Mars.

But, if France is causing a problem for the Union, why don't they just drop France out and return that country to its own currency and independent economy?

No more France, no more stone in the Union's shoe.

Um... right?

sKaLpZ,

What passes for 'European constitution' is very far removed from a 'Constitution'. It's only a 'European Politician's Gimmick'. The main problem in most European countries is a complete absence of respect for basic human rights in their judicial system: No habeas corpus. Police, prosecutors, judges being basically indistinguishable and controlled by the same guys. Lawyers being terrorized by their Law Societies, controlled by still those same guys. . No attempt whatsoever to bring minimal standards of decency into this situation. Supreme Court Justice Scalia's saying: 'In the US we have a jury system because the people don't trust their judges' would be heresy in Europe. You probably might still get burned at the stake for uttering such words.

I am not French at all. What you see these days is perhaps a sparkle of what is still left in Europe, especially in France, of the ancient European genius.

Do you realize that the US constitution was to a great extent inspired by Montesquieu's 'De l'Esprit des Lois'? (= On the spirit of the law). It has worked well for 200+ years, no? Sadly, Montesquieu is not well known and/or followed by the Europeans of this day.

Throwing France out of Europe would be barbaric and disastrous. Following your suggestion would permanently condemn the rest of Europe to the rule of those political self-serving half wits.

 

[just21]

Why has the Dax gone to a new high for the year with the CAC40 poised to follow suit?

 

[mmillar]

nononsense - you really do talk out of your arse.

 

[mmillar]

Quote from sKaLpZ:

So what are you saying, that Europe suddenly has 50 cracks? And the euro is toast?

It's unlikely that the rejection of the Constitution will have any huge effects, though it will cause delay and political uncertainty. It was mainly a tieing up of loose ends. Many of the paragraphs are just lifted wholesale from earlier documents.

What's more important is countries like Italy and Greece whose economies are crumbling. Italy has always been on the edge of financial crises but has always just hung on by, for instance, devaluing their currency. They no longer have this option.

 

[mmillar]

Quote from atorchio:

To tell the truth, no other country submitted the treaty to a popular vote. Except Holland, and they are going to vote "no".

Spain held a referendum on 20 February, and it was approved by a very large majority.

 

[sKaLpZ]

so in other words, the general consensus is that Europe has problems but, the French's vote of no will work as a wake-up call to fix things.

then things will be fixed.

then the euro will be repaired.

then the EUR/USD rate will once again bounce like a rubber ball up and down.

am I missing something here?

 

[nononsense]

Quote from mmillar:

nononsense - you really do talk out of your arse.

Quote from mmillar:

Spain held a referendum on 20 February, and it was approved by a very large majority.

You omit that the Spanish referendum was not quite the same like the French or the Dutch. In fact the third part of the 'constitution' was even hidden from the voters in Spain. The Spanish vote was in comparison a doctored uninformed 'auto da fe'. Nobody in the European press lists this as a sovereign decision by the 'people' of Spain. It's put under the decisions by parliament! Don't try to fool people.

Good enough for dopes used to your arse talk (sic).

In fact under true democratic principles, an approval of a constitution should be put to the vote of the people the SAME IDENTICAL text at the SAME TIME. Not the hanky panky you are defending right now.

 

[mmillar]

Quote from sKaLpZ:

...the French's vote of no will work as a wake-up call to fix things.
...

Not necessarily. Europe definately has problems, but the vote on the referendum hasn't told the politicians what the people want to do about it. In France, the No vote was run by a combination of Fascists and Communists who wanted entirely different things! The French farmers were the biggest No voters, yet they are the biggest beneficiaries! In Holland, people are (apparently) voting against the fact that there has been very high inflation since the introduction of the Euro. What conclusions can you draw from all that?

Everyone will muddle along for a while until they work out what to do next.