Easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter....
- Thread starter themickey
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Wow. I just gave you a lot of archaeological evidence that contradicts what you wrote and that is your response?
Wow. I logged out to see what studentofthedevil was up to here. I feel so sorry for you guys that have to wade through so much copy and paste. So much more peaceful on this side of the block button.
I can say that back when I was in Rhema Bible Fellowship (for two years) I was almost, almost as zealous to be right, no matter what. Almost. I believe it's because I held onto a shed of dignity, that I was eventually saved from that particular delusion. But if I can be saved, so can studentofthedevil.
My absolute lowest point was when I joined an outreach team to set up a tent at the county fair with the headline, "Are you going to heaven or hell?". People would come in, some of them genuinely concerned. We had a boilerplate of questions to ask, and a boilerplate verdict to render. And of course, a solution to offer which fitted nicely with our agenda. So here I was, I had only been a Christian for a few weeks, I'm now at the county fair rendering judgments in my white shirt and tie. Then I saw Barbara, a girl I had dated once in community collage, there at the fair with a date, browsing all the stalls, and coming my way. This was my lowest, most embarrassing point ever. Now I'm supposed to sit and pose questions to Barbara, and her boyfriend, knowing full well nobody passes this test? So I ducked inside the tent where she couldn't see me and sweated it till she passed by. I really liked Barbara too.
Maybe that event, early on, saved me. I became determined to rest assured that what I was believing was right, and went into overdrive to study the Bible with the same application of attention that I used to pull grade A's in college, in business law, for example.
I began to read Paul's letters explaining the legality of the salvation proposition, determined not to conclude, or assume anything, until the matter had settled in my mind, like the way other matters settled, just before I would ace a test. I have to admit, the matter never settled. I could never really say I understood Paul. I would like to think that it was A.) I was a good student, and B.) I still had a shred of dignity and personal honesty. It bothered me for the two years I was in that environment and eventually helped me escape.
Moral of story, be a good student, or, if you are a detective trying to figure out why they murdered a noteable teacher (Jesus), and why it is still difficult to unbury a straight story about him, then be a damn good detective.
Some of us are not good students, and wish to teach before it is our time.
I can say that back when I was in Rhema Bible Fellowship (for two years) I was almost, almost as zealous to be right, no matter what. Almost. I believe it's because I held onto a shed of dignity, that I was eventually saved from that particular delusion. But if I can be saved, so can studentofthedevil.
My absolute lowest point was when I joined an outreach team to set up a tent at the county fair with the headline, "Are you going to heaven or hell?". People would come in, some of them genuinely concerned. We had a boilerplate of questions to ask, and a boilerplate verdict to render. And of course, a solution to offer which fitted nicely with our agenda. So here I was, I had only been a Christian for a few weeks, I'm now at the county fair rendering judgments in my white shirt and tie. Then I saw Barbara, a girl I had dated once in community collage, there at the fair with a date, browsing all the stalls, and coming my way. This was my lowest, most embarrassing point ever. Now I'm supposed to sit and pose questions to Barbara, and her boyfriend, knowing full well nobody passes this test? So I ducked inside the tent where she couldn't see me and sweated it till she passed by. I really liked Barbara too.
Maybe that event, early on, saved me. I became determined to rest assured that what I was believing was right, and went into overdrive to study the Bible with the same application of attention that I used to pull grade A's in college, in business law, for example.
I began to read Paul's letters explaining the legality of the salvation proposition, determined not to conclude, or assume anything, until the matter had settled in my mind, like the way other matters settled, just before I would ace a test. I have to admit, the matter never settled. I could never really say I understood Paul. I would like to think that it was A.) I was a good student, and B.) I still had a shred of dignity and personal honesty. It bothered me for the two years I was in that environment and eventually helped me escape.
Moral of story, be a good student, or, if you are a detective trying to figure out why they murdered a noteable teacher (Jesus), and why it is still difficult to unbury a straight story about him, then be a damn good detective.
Some of us are not good students, and wish to teach before it is our time.
Or you could just keep an eye out for my links. It's all right there for the taking. No need to go through the work, because all the intellectual work has already been done FOR you by many other authors and pundits. YOU just need an open MIND.
I have discarded much more than Christianity in my quest to find out what the hell is happening here. Yes I have disqualified some fairly advanced worldviews that many consider to be ultra spiritual. There are several more mind-fucks out there, besides Judeo-Christianity. They all have a common thread.
I am very well read, having not much stopped seeking in the 25 years after I walked outa that little Bible Church.
Someday I will do a critique on William Dafoe's character performance that you've posted. I've watched it before but have never taken time to break it down, maybe because the interest level here is not that high?
But maybe I should mention what has driven me to seek all these years, till finding the answer about ten years ago.
I too had an epiphany, before ever I became a Judeo-Christian. An epiphany might be described as an injection of actual knowledge. Somehow, you come to know, overnight, something you did not learn, even something that no one teaches. I would not call it a total immersion of knowledge. I was just given surety about one simple matter:
This is not my home
That's it. Just one small seed. But from that seed has grown a fairly large tree that offers shade to weary travelers who are tired of the journey so far.
It was not a voice message or words, just a knowing that I do not come from this world, and have a place somewhere completely different, which transcends time.
This was not a special message that made me special or different. This was a general knowledge which applies to everyone, or at least anyone who is anyone. But of course, I was most curious to know more, how this applied to me. I actually was not given to know what home actually was, so it was still a bit of a mystery. Nor was I given to know what "this" was, this place, this world which appeared, heretofore, to be my home.
Now, I must admit that this bit of knowledge seems to have come from Jesus because it dawned on my mind the morning after an appeal directed specifically at Jesus. So arguably it was an answer to a very sincere prayer for help. Had that prayer not been answered, I likely would not have give Jesus the time of day for the rest of this incarnation. I wasn't playin.
This epiphany was so moving, and so powerful, that within days, I ceased and desisted my prior endeavors, mainly to become a professional musician. I was playing in two bands at the time, and quit both, and walked away from an eleven year investment in my career and from my potential 15 minutes of fame, which was recieved by some other guitar player that came up later from my home town. I never looked back. This is to emphasize just how moving it is when you get even one small seed of knowledge.
Although I did not know what home was, I felt akin to Jesus, as if we came from the same place, and return to the same place. So of course I began my studies, my seeking, amongst the crowd that was crowing loudest about Jesus: the Bible oriented Christians.
This bit of knowledge was probably the main element besides the two mentioned, that saved me from spending my entire current incarnation with them. The fact is, what they teach about my home, about your home, contradicts what I had been given to know. Christians teach that this world is our home, and that we come from Adam and Eve, for whom this world was also their home.
Anyway, for some weeks I worked hard to hold onto the seed I had been given, and cultivate it, and keep it alive and fresh. Alas, after joining the Christians it began to fade away in it's vitality till it was almost all buried under the hard soil of fear. But I never did forget it, and am glad it did have a chance, eventually to grow, in a fearless environment .
I will see if William Dafoe had anything to say that agrees with this, or whether I have to put my detective cap on again to get to the bottom of statements people make about Jesus.
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I went through this same shit many years ago. I was in a very desperate time, and prayed the fuck out of my soul for an answer, and all of a sudden, like a white light, the answer came to me.
And I joined a church, and went through the motions, and enjoyed that "peace" of the fellowship.
But then real-life called me away to, you know, get on with life, get a job, and blah blah. It was then that I realized it was not "God" that helped me...It was my own brain.
Real life has a way of disproving God, because God is not an external force. It all comes from within. We are all our own self-rapture.
All this clap-trap about an external deity being needed to save our souls or give us some form of peace? It was created not for OUR benefit, but for those who would profit from it.
Well I certainly don't deny this happened to you, or something happened. It is perhaps more common than meets the eye. Probably this is what Judeo-Chistians called "born again", a fairly powerful experience.
I too once described it that way, but no more. But I think I am living proof that even we may be given a seed of some very powerful knowledge, we don't necessarily stay true to it. It just does not get properly cultivated in environments of fear.
The seed of knowledge does not force an immediate arrival at the proverbial home. Frankly, no man is ready for that on a moments notice. So I do not claim to have arrived, like Judeo-Christians claim to have arrived. Meanwhile, we can go astray.
I am sorry the seed in you seems to have died, or is buried so deep it might never sprout. Juseo-Christianity can have that effect.
But in a way you are still right about something. This salvation does not come from an external god, but does come from our Self, if we be Christ.
It might have happened to Paul. But again, it is no guarantee the seed falls on fertile ground that is really ready. Fear, like birds, may come and snatch it away.
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Your story is like many others who have come close, yet not been truly saved. Ephesians 1 says that one who trusts in Christ will be sealed with the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 6 talks about one who came close to salvation and experienced some of the working of the Holy Spirit, yet was never truly sealed by the Holy Spirit.
What is the difference between one who believes in vain, and there are several places in the Bible mentioning a belief in vain, and one who believes unto salvation.
My own understanding is that salvation is the cooperative effort of God's Spirit showing an unbeliever certain truths about Himself and then waiting to see his response. If one rejects at any stage, he may not get another chance. Sometimes people reject for a long time then finally come to salvation. I personally believe, though it is a little hard to be completely certain, that this verse means that at some point in every persons life God will give some revelation of truth about Himself to that person and depending on their response will give more or less. That is based on some passages that aren't extremely clear on the subject, so I am only saying that is my current understanding.
This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person.
John 1:9 NASB
John 1:9 NASB
I do have some Scriptural reasons for why what you experienced was not genuine faith. I am going to quote from an article because it saves me time for having to word everything correctly, but this is all stuff that I have studied and believed from studying Scriptures apart from this article which I just happen to read tonight. I will be posting relevant quotes to make the points I'm trying to share quick, but for anyone interested in understanding this, I recommend reading the entire article, as well as the relevant passages in Scripture in their context. I know nothing else about the writer or his church, but I did carefully read the article and feel this article is accurate to my current understanding of Scripture.
Below are quotes, sometimes with gaps between them. I added boldness.
How Far Can a Person Go As a False Convert?
by Tim Conway of Grace Community Church
https://illbehonest.com/how-far-can-a-person-go-as-a-false-convert
"How far can a person really go as a false convert? I just want to look at several texts."
"The first one is Hebrews 6. How far can they go?"
Hebrews 6:4. “For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened…” Tim: Okay. What he’s going to say is it’s impossible to renew unto or to restore unto or to bring back to a state of repentance somebody who has been – so this is a person who it’s impossible to be saved. So one thing we know for certain: They’ve never been saved if it’s impossible for them to be saved. They’ve been enlightened. That was the first thing that was said. They have been enlightened. What does that mean? Light. You know what it’s like. It’s dark outside. You come to the light, you can see things. If you guys go stand on my porch, and the light’s not on, you can’t see things. If I turn the light on – whoa! All of a sudden, everything appears around you. Light we are told makes manifest. What is it about light? Enlightenment. It means I am brought to see what I never saw before. So, how far can a person go? They can be exposed to preaching, to the Word of God. They can be exposed to the light of truth and brought to a place that they never were before.
What’s the next thing said there? “…Who have tasted the heavenly gift.”
Tim: Okay, isn’t that amazing? They’ve tasted. It’s like the heavenly gift – it’s like they’ve taken salvation. They’ve put it in their mouth. And they’ve rolled it around on their tongue. They’ve got the flavor of it.
Keep going. “…Who have shared in the Holy Spirit.”
Tim: Okay. You know what’s interesting? He said this: “Is it really possible to have such fruits?” Or he says this: “How can an unsaved man be able to even feel that way if not by the Spirit?” Well, I would say this, it probably was by the Spirit. You say, what do you mean? I’m saying this, the Spirit of God works in many people who come short of genuine salvation. The Word of God can be preached. You know what you find oftentimes in times of revival? Or you find this even on a given Sunday. Somebody stands up and preaches a message. You get people who – they’re moved. They’re swayed. They’re convicted. They feel some power in the preaching. They go out and they’re concerned for their souls. Their conscience has been made alive. ...They’ve participated in the work of the Spirit. It’s possible for that to happen and truly be of the Spirit, and yet they get to a place where it’s impossible for them to repent. My Edit: I think he is referring to it not being possible to be renewed again to salvation simply because they never had salvation to begin with. I do not think it means that once someone experiences this and then falls away that they can no longer be saved. However, this topic is debated, and I cannot be completely sure.
Keep going. “…And have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the age to come.” Tim: See? They’ve tasted of the Word. They’ve tasted the truths. That’s swirled around in their mouth as well. And even the world to come. There’s power. They’re actually experiencing the power of the supernatural. And not just any supernatural, this is actually the power of God that they’re being exposed to. Something even that’s representative of the world to come. There’s exposure.
Keep going. “…And then have fallen away.”
Tim: Okay, now these people have fallen away. Here’s the reality we looked at before. When it’s genuine salvation, it can’t be lost. So these people – it’s impossible once they’ve tasted – look, when it says that they’ve fallen away, you can’t fall away from true salvation.
Why? Because He puts His fear in us that we not fall away; that we not go away from Him. Christ says if you come to Me, I will raise you up at the last day. You see, these people, (incomplete thought) what they fell away from is not being saved. They’ve fallen away from the very things that are described there. They’ve fallen away from the impact. This is a person who is exposed to truth. They may claim to believe the truth. They may make a profession. They may get baptized. They may join the church. They feel they’ve been impacted. They feel they’ve been convicted. And look, based on that text, it’s real supernatural operations of the Spirit. But it comes short because they fall. They go away. Remember this: If you’re sealed with the Spirit, He’s the guarantee of your inheritance until you acquire possession of it. It’s a guarantee. These operations of the Spirit right here fall short of that. (incomplete thought) All those things right there a person can have happen and come short.
"The reason the true believer will not let go of Christ is because he truly believes. He believes he’s got to have Christ or perish and he won’t let go of Him for anything. He glories in that. That is his hope. He worships God in the Spirit."
https://illbehonest.com/how-far-can-a-person-go-as-a-false-convert
If you didn't catch anything out of the previous two posts, this is the one paragraph I hope will be read carefully.
The reason for a false profession is simply because something went wrong in the process so that either the repentance was lacking or faith was lacking or there was some doctrinal misunderstanding about the Person or Work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Often we tell people to turn from sin and look to Christ. That is correct, and based on Scripture, but what does that mean?
Jesus spent quite a bit of His ministry dealing with people's sin. To the rich young ruler He pointed out that only God is good. The Sermon on the Mount promised blessing to those who are destitute, and from other Scripture it becomes clear that this is not a material destitution but a spiritual destitution. One must come to Christ with the understanding that they are bankrupt and destitute of and goodness on our own, and that even what we try to do to be good is so marred with sin that the Bible calls is "filthy rags."
Here is something to remember. Repentance isn't working ourselves up into contrition or sorrowing over our sin. It can include that, but genuine repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit showing us that we have fallen short of God's standard of righteousness and that we rightfully deserve His judgment. This is different than having a "poor me" attitude. It really isn't something we can even work up on our own. It comes from the Scriptures being taken to heart by the Holy Spirit and then we have a choice to turn to Christ for deliverance from our sin or to reject turning to Jesus.
I firmly believe that most false converts never got to the place where they saw their sin in view of how God sees is, which would lead them to correctly calling on and embracing Jesus and His work on the cross.
https://illbehonest.com/how-far-can-a-person-go-as-a-false-convert
If you didn't catch anything out of the previous two posts, this is the one paragraph I hope will be read carefully.
The reason for a false profession is simply because something went wrong in the process so that either the repentance was lacking or faith was lacking or there was some doctrinal misunderstanding about the Person or Work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Often we tell people to turn from sin and look to Christ. That is correct, and based on Scripture, but what does that mean?
Jesus spent quite a bit of His ministry dealing with people's sin. To the rich young ruler He pointed out that only God is good. The Sermon on the Mount promised blessing to those who are destitute, and from other Scripture it becomes clear that this is not a material destitution but a spiritual destitution. One must come to Christ with the understanding that they are bankrupt and destitute of and goodness on our own, and that even what we try to do to be good is so marred with sin that the Bible calls is "filthy rags."
For we all have become like one who is [ceremonially] unclean [like a leper], And all our deeds of righteousness are like filthy rags; We all wither and decay like a leaf, And our wickedness [our sin, our injustice, our wrongdoing], like the wind, takes us away [carrying us far from God’s favor, toward destruction].
Isaiah 64:6 AMP
Isaiah 64:6 AMP
Here is something to remember. Repentance isn't working ourselves up into contrition or sorrowing over our sin. It can include that, but genuine repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit showing us that we have fallen short of God's standard of righteousness and that we rightfully deserve His judgment. This is different than having a "poor me" attitude. It really isn't something we can even work up on our own. It comes from the Scriptures being taken to heart by the Holy Spirit and then we have a choice to turn to Christ for deliverance from our sin or to reject turning to Jesus.
I firmly believe that most false converts never got to the place where they saw their sin in view of how God sees is, which would lead them to correctly calling on and embracing Jesus and His work on the cross.