Earn 2 Trade the gauntlet

[Earn2Trade-Ryan]

you've misunderstood my point.

your fees for all non-micro products are similar to discount retail brokers. for example, cost for trading 1 ES contract with AMP Futures is $4.40/RT (lowest volume tier). this is right in line with the cost for trading 1 ES contract with Helios.

Helios' all-in commissions for all products except the micros are very close to the commissions we'd pay at discount futures brokerages.

so the argument that Helios's commissions are necessarily higher than those of a discount futures brokerage because it serves prop and pro traders isn't even true. if that were the case, it would be much more expensive to trade ES/NQ/YM/RTY/CL/NG/GC/ZN/ZB/etc. with helios than with AMP.

but it isn't.

the problem is that your FCM doesn't charge a lower "FCM fee" for the micros. it charges the exact same "FCM fee" for the micros as it does the eminis, which are 10x the size.

you can't just say Helios does this b/c they're a PRO firm. they why do philip capital, gh financials, IB, etc. all of whom serve professional/prop/HF clients charge both a lower clearing fee and a lower broker-commission fee for the micros? i'm not talking AMP or Ninjatrader or Stage5trading here.

And let's be real: saying that "The FCM fee can also be reduced down to $.70 RT if you’re doing volume" without mentioning that "doing volume" equals "5000+ Round Turns per month" is a bit disingenuous.

it's cool you hope to have the FCM rates go lower in the future but the point that's lost on you is that you don't have separate FCM rates for the micros like other FCMs. your FCM rates for the full-sized products (ES/CL/GC/ZN/etc.) are already fine. they aren't the lowest in the industry but they aren't that high either. nobody's complaining about paying $4-5/RT for trading those non-micro products with Helios.

I've brought this up with them many times in the past, their response is that they don't necessarily care what products a trader is trading. Their commission isn't based on a contract value, the same reason they don't change commissions when a trader is trading spreads or other micros (the new emini's aren't the only micros). Most of the FCM's who work with prop firms and offer the risk controls that Helios needs do not offer lower commissions either. That all said, it's been awhile since we've discussed it with them and will bring up the subject again.

 

[ElectricSavant]

Ryan,

canoe has a point. I pulled from his post two compelling points below. The micro market seems to be exploding with small traders. The volume seems to be there to justify reduced FCM fees for this micro product. Stock Traders find the Micros similar to Index ETF's and I believe it is an untapped market until now for the CME Futures.

1) Helios' all-in commissions for all products except the micros are very close to the commissions we'd pay at discount futures brokerages.

2) the problem is that your FCM doesn't charge a lower "FCM fee" for the micros. it charges the exact same "FCM fee" for the micros as it does the eminis, which are 10x the size.

ES

 

[ElectricSavant]

now we need "canoe" to argue his points with the greedy CME!

 

[ElectricSavant]

I contacted a few Stock Traders that I have posted with in the last 6 months and they seem excited about the micros. The volume is there but they are not so excited about the non-aligned fees.

Yes..I told them about Earn2Trade...but they need to contact them directly as they do not seem to understand how prop shops work.

I feel this micro-market (ES,NQ,YM) is new and Helios will change. In the retail world AMP and Tradovate along with others see the potential.

Face it...as a retail trader transitions into prop he only can compare with what he knows. Logically he needs to justify what these fees are regardless of internal risk models.

ES

 

[canoe]

now we need canoe to argue his points with the greedy CME!

i'm no fan of the cme but cme's exchange fees are:

1) $1.18/side for eminis
2) $0.20/side for micros

so even for the "greedy CME", they are still offering 1/6th of the eminis' exchange fee for the micros.

even though the micros are 1/10th the emini notional value, it was never realistic to expect the CME to charge 1/10th the exchange fees. i have to give CME credit where it's due; i think the 1/6th price they're charging is fair and reasonable, especially given how tight they're ensuring the spreads for the micros to be.

if even the "greedy CME" can set exchange fees for the micros at 1/6th the emini fees, there's absolutely no reason why Helios can't offer at least a slightly lower "FCM fee", especially when there are already fcms catering to professional clients that also offer a lower "FCM fee" for the micros.

 

[Earn2Trade-Ryan]

i'm no fan of the cme but cme's exchange fees are:

1) $1.18/side for eminis
2) $0.20/side for micros

so even for the "greedy CME", they are still offering 1/6th of the eminis' exchange fee for the micros.

even though the micros are 1/10th the emini notional value, it was never realistic to expect the CME to charge 1/10th the exchange fees. i have to give CME credit where it's due; i think the 1/6th price they're charging is fair and reasonable, especially given how tight they're ensuring the spreads for the micros to be.

if even the "greedy CME" can set exchange fees for the micros at 1/6th the emini fees, there's absolutely no reason why Helios can't offer at least a slightly lower "FCM fee", especially when there are already fcms catering to professional clients that also offer a lower "FCM fee" for the micros.

It's not Helios who sets these rates, it's their FCM. Unfortunately their FCM is the only one currently who offers the risk management they need to manage the traders. Hopefully the Helios FCM will agree to lower the fees for micros but having asked many times in the past, I'm not sure they will.

 

[Illini Trader]

It's not Helios who sets these rates, it's their FCM. Unfortunately their FCM is the only one currently who offers the risk management they need to manage the traders. Hopefully the Helios FCM will agree to lower the fees for micros but having asked many times in the past, I'm not sure they will.

I am intrigued by the sentence in bold. This may be proprietary information that you are unwilling to disclose and I can understand if that is the case. But is this some type of insurance plan for Helios if a trader goes rouge and does some crazy stuff?

 

[ElectricSavant]

I thinks it is something to do with "daily loss limit" setting abilities....maybe there are menus of enhanced packages that FCM's offer to the industry to manage breaches of Risk...Drawdown...Sharpe ratios....etc...hopefully Ryan can answer...

I am intrigued by the sentence in bold. This may be proprietary information that you are unwilling to disclose and I can understand if that is the case. But is this some type of insurance plan for Helios if a trader goes rouge and does some crazy stuff?

 

[Earn2Trade-Ryan]

I thinks it is something to do with "daily loss limit" setting abilities....maybe there are menus of enhanced packages that FCM's offer to the industry to manage Risk...Drawdown...sharpe ratios....etc...hopefully Ryan can answer...

It has to do with allowing certain Rithmic settings as well as specific sub-account configurations.

 

[Illini Trader]

This discussion has been very interesting and enlightening. I agree with ES on all the positive comments he made about E2T as I have found Ryan and his crew to be above first class and also wish the best for them. I hope the new micros do not harm their business but in my case the micros seem be the perfect alternative to the Gauntlet and Helios. This risk of "becoming pro" and losing my amateur status, maybe still bombing out with Helios, then, possibly having difficulty getting back in the door with AMP is just too much to risk.

I am currently active in the Gauntlet and was planning to take advantage of their 1/2 price restart but now I think I will just trade the micros instead.