Discussion (or maybe not) between Good1 and studentofthemarkets

Status
Not open for further replies.
Bible says God cannot lie.
Hebrews 6:18
in which it is impossible for God to lie
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent.
Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.


Bible says God does lie and will even make prophets or 'lying spirits' do his dirty work.
1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Jeremiah 4:10
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jeremiah 20:7
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.
Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.


Believers need believe in regard to the former, that the Bible is always in context and in regard to the latter, that the Bible is always out of context.

This way believers can also join in with the lying themselves.
 
stu said:
Bible says God cannot lie.
Hebrews 6:18
in which it is impossible for God to lie
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent.
Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.


Bible says God does lie and will even make prophets or 'lying spirits' do his dirty work.
1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Jeremiah 4:10
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jeremiah 20:7
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.
Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.


Believers need believe in regard to the former, that the Bible is always in context and in regard to the latter, that the Bible is always out of context.

This way believers can also join in with the lying themselves.
More...


1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.​

I already showed that God did NOT lie or coerce anyone to lie or coerce anyone to believe the lie in what took place. The passage says that God asked for a volunteer and a lying spirit volunteered to accomplish God’s judgment. God is always right to judge sin.


Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.​

I already showed that this verse does not state that God Himself has lied, but rather that God was not going to reveal His truth to the false prophet, the one that had rejected His truth already, or to the listeners to a false prophet. Although in this passage it does not directly state how God was going to accomplish this, the set up is exactly the same as it was in 1 Kings 22, prophets who were already deceivers, and people who had already rejected the truth. What is missing is whether or not God had sent a lying spirit to accomplish the judgment. It’s simply not stated, yet I would think that it is likely the case that it played out in a similar manner as in 1 Kings 22, especially when considering that there are multiple other verses that show that Satan and fallen angels actively deceive people, even today.

Jeremiah 20:7
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.​

Different translation:
LORD, you have persuaded me, and I was persuaded. You are stronger than I am, and have prevailed. I have become a laughing-stock all day long; everyone mocks me. NHEB​

The second translation gives a clearer meaning.

If you read the verse in context to its passage you will see that Jeremiah is complaining about becoming a prophet because he has been persecuted by the people for preaching a message of coming judgment that they don’t want to hear. They prefer the false prophets who foretell peace.

The passage begins with this:

Jeremiah 20:1, 2
When the priest Pashhur son of Immer, the official in charge of the temple of the Lord, heard Jeremiah prophesying these things, he had Jeremiah the prophet beaten and put in the stocks at the Upper Gate of Benjamin at the Lord’s temple.​

Jeremiah was honest with God about his feelings that being a prophet wasn’t what he expected it to be. Even though he is feeling this way and speaking freely to God, it does not mean that God actually lied to him.

Jeremiah 4:10
Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.​

According to several commentaries, it could be the false prophets making this claim. This doesn’t really make sense to me, because the false teachers were the ones proclaiming peace, so why would they be upset with God for this?

It is also possible that Jeremiah did speak this. However, Jeremiah’s message recorded so far in the book of Jeremiah was not one of peace, but of coming destruction. So, this would seem to make his accusation false.

I’m undecided as to what the verse actually is referring to, but it does make a little bit of sense to me that it could be Jeremiah is speaking to God concerning the false prophets and their message of peace and that the people have been deceived by the false prophets. Perhaps he is remembering the previously written passage in 1 Kings 22 where God sent the lying spirit to the false prophets, and Jeremiah is seeing that God has given the people over to be deceived by the false prophets.

However, in both scenarios, God did not lie.
​
Lies are from the devil, not God:

John 8:44-46
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. NKJV​

Demons are the evil spirits who follow after Satan (the devil). When God allows a spirit to deceive someone, it will be the work of an evil spirit. God is allowing sin to be shown as evil with ongoing consequences. This takes place at multiple levels, from what we see taking place on earth and also what is transpiring in heaven with the spirits. Ultimately, even the lying spirit (a demon) will give an account to God for his sin. Demons know this and shudder (James 2:19), though they keep on sinning. Jesus said that the problem with those challenging Him was that they were of their father the devil, and they wanted to do the desires of their father, not God. When Jesus told them the truth, they did not believe Him.

God makes it clear that He has the right to rule and judge. When God says that if a person rejects the truth, that God then reserves the right to give the person over to believing the lies the person wants to be true, then He has the right to do this. Our responsibility is to find what God wants and submit to it. Anything else is a losing battle on our end. When we hear about this, God wants us to respond in fear that we might cross a line, such that He stops trying to impress truth upon us.

When we reject truth because we don’t like it and then blame God for the problems resulting from this, it actually only serves to demonstrate God’s wisdom in how he handles the situation. He gives us the will to accept or reject. However, continued wilful rejection of truth and coming up with our own standards of right and wrong offends Him and a consequence may be that we believe the lies that we want to be true.

Hebrews 2:2, 3a
For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? NASB​

God has offered salvation through Jesus to all who believe. There are strong warnings to not harden one’s heart and reject Him.

One of my favorite passages in the Bible foretells of Jesus as One Who was not violent or deceiving.

Isaiah 53:8d, 9
...for the transgression of my people he was punished.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.​
 
studentofthemarkets said:
I already showed that God did NOT lie or coerce anyone to lie or coerce anyone to believe the lie in what took place. The passage says that God asked for a volunteer and a lying spirit volunteered to accomplish God’s judgment. God is always right to judge sin.
More...

Not true. That Bible passage clearly states God asked a volunteer to lie for him.
You seem to be volunteering to twist things into saying a lie is not a lie. Omg are you a lying spirit?

Whether or not the imaginary God in the Bible you seem to have convinced yourself to lie for wishes to perform some kind of judgement, is beside the point. What the passage clearly states is Bible God lied to achieve its own ends.

God lies. The Bible says so. That's the point.

You contend what the Bible says depends upon a different translation or is according to several commentaries or is always out of context when you don't like what it says. Then quite honestly it's not worth the paper it's printed on.


"The Bible has noble poetry in it... and some good morals and a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of a thousand lies."― Mark Twain​
 
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1 John 4:1-6 KJV.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:16-18 KJV
 
The Bible says this, the Bible says that...The Bible was written by men. Not by Jesus or God, but by men. Deal with it. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost exist in the minds of men, and thus are an artificial construction by men. Nikos Kazantzakis got it right, man.

 
Overnight said:
The Bible says this, the Bible says that...The Bible was written by men. Not by Jesus or God, but by men. Deal with it. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost exist in the minds of men, and thus are an artificial construction by men. Nikos Kazantzakis got it right, man.

More...
If the Bible was written by people, and came from the minds of people, without the intervention of God, then how do you explain fulfilled prophesy?

Here is the summary of a very good and very short article found at: https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_234.cfm

"Therefore, Jesus fulfilled certain prophecies about the coming Messiah.​

  1. He was born in the right family line-David's.​
  2. He was born at the right place-Bethlehem.​
  3. He was born at the right time in history-before the city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed​
Two Important Points Need To Be Noted​

These three areas of prophecy we have looked at reveal two startling things:​

First, the prophecies were fulfilled literally-exactly as they were written. Jesus was literally a descendant of King David, He was literally born in the city of Bethlehem, and He literally came upon the scene of history and was killed before the city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.​

No Human Manipulation​

Second, these three lines of prophecy were all fulfilled without any human manipulation or fulfillment. There is no way Jesus could have deliberately fulfilled them, seeing they were all fulfilled by His birth. Before He gave any sermons, before He did anything miraculous, Jesus supernaturally fulfilled these prophecies. He was born in the right family, at the right place, and at the right time in history. Humanly speaking, there is no way Jesus could control these factors.​

Summary​

After looking at only three lines of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled at His first coming we can make the following observations. Jesus told the religious leaders to search the Scriptures and discover where they spoke about Him. The coming Messiah was to be born in one particular family. This would be through Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and David. The New Testament is clear that Jesus was a descendant of David. The Old Testament prophet Micah predicted the Messiah would be born in the small town of Bethlehem. Matthew tells us that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Daniel the prophet said the Messiah would come before the city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed at that He would also be killed. Jesus came upon the scene of history before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. He was crucified about forty years before they were destroyed. The prophecies that Jesus fulfilled were fulfilled literally. He was a literal descendant of David, literally born in Bethlehem, and literally died before the city and temple were destroyed. These three lines of prophecy were fulfilled by Jesus' birth. There is no way, humanly speaking, that He could have deliberately fulfilled them. The coming of the Messiah was predicted in the Old Testament. Jesus fulfilled these prophecies and, in doing so, has the right to claim to be the promised Messiah."​

The book of Isaiah has very detailed prophesies fulfilled by Jesus found in many chapters, the most well-known being Isaiah 53.

Just a tiny portion taken from 53:12 says, "because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors."

Who else has had their death predicted and described hundreds and even over a thousand years beforehand, when considering the parts in scripture written by Moses that also describe Him? The very first mention was in the Garden of Eden, when God said that from the woman would come one who would crush the serpent's head....
 
Last edited:
studentofthemarkets said:
If the Bible was written by people, and came from the minds of people, without the intervention of God, then how do you explain fulfilled prophesy?...

Who else has had their death predicted and described hundreds and even thousands, when considering the parts in scripture written by Moses that also describe Him?
More...

It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you put a thousand monkeys into a room with typewriters, they will eventually write the entire works of Shakespere.

If the prophecy could not find a fulfillment, eventually it would, over time. If it did not happen in the timeframe conceived, it would have been filled at a later date, and then called "The Truth."

This is the fallacy of the human condition.

Here, read this book, and get back to us...

 
Overnight said:
It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you put a thousand monkeys into a room, they will eventually write the entire works of Shakespere.

If the prophecy could not find a fulfillment, eventually it would, over time. If it did not happen in the timeframe conceived, it would have been filled at a later date, and then called "The Truth."

This is the fallacy of the human condition.

Here, read this book, and get back to us...

More...
Yes, it was self-fulfilled, because Jesus existed before He came as a man, and wrote what would happen to Him. It could not have happened with so many different authors, spread out over such a large period of time, without God's direction.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top