Democracies risk 'losing souls' as media freedom erodes, group says

[Max E.]

Or perhaps the botched raid a few months ago that cost an American SEAL his life, several dozen women and children, and the Al Queada target got away.

While i pin the blame directly on Trump and the military for that one, its not even close to the same, the military and government didnt try to lie to the families abouit what wwent on their. Trump and the military's biggest sin on that one was willing to be far too gung ho for something that apparently wasnt going to accomplish much.

Thats my biggest fear with Trump, he seems to be willing to just cede control of everything including the military, and we all know how it ends up when the army generals are the ones dictating foreign policy.

 

[piezoe]

It takes a few time for information to be filtered back to the top when its coming from the ground level BEFORE an attack, once the attack happens there is a shoe horn direct to the people at the top where they know who were involved.

I have no doubt that they didnt see the attack coming because it got filtered through various beurecracies, but once it happened, they literally had all arms on deck, and everyone watching and figuring it out, Hillary would have been in that situation room. They knew full well that it was more than a spontaneous uprising when AK's and RPG's started going off, to deny that is to deny reality.

Spontaneous riots dont end up with military grade weapons, and coordinated assaults. You posted politifact as a supposed reputable source to try to discredit the fact that hillary and the Obama admin lied about it, so tell me this, since politifact doesnt think they lied about it, why is it that three families who had nothing to do with each other all have matching stories, that match exactly with what The obama admin was saying at the time?

Again i dont think this was some nefarious plan, it was just an instance of them trying to cover their ass and put spin on something where americans died, similar to the Situation with the army ranger from the NFL (cant rememebr his name now) who died in combat from friendly fire and the military tried to lie. It should trouble everyone that the snap reaction from the people in charge of all these bodies, and the government as a whole, is to try to lie before telling the truth. The cover up is always worse than the crime, But beurecratic incompotence just doesnt sell at the voting booth.

You might be correct. I personally don't see anything here other than error that was corrected. It was Pro-Publica.org rather than politifact where I found a copy of the Times blurb. I like Pro-publica. Check it out if you haven't already. Good outfit!

 

[newwurldmn]

While i pin the blame directly on Trump and the military for that one, its not even close to the same, the military and government didnt try to lie to the families abouit what wwent on their. Trump and the military's biggest sin on that one was willing to be far too gung ho for something that apparently wasnt going to accomplish much.

Thats my biggest fear with Trump, he seems to be willing to just cede control of everything including the military, and we all know how it ends up when the army generals are the ones dictating foreign policy.

I agree on both points.

I didn't like how his first reaction was to blame Obama and second reaction was to say that there was some information that was gathered.

What made JFK memorable was that he accepted responsibility for Bay of Pigs.

Personally, I like Trump's military advisor picks. I'm not a fan of anyone else he has as advisors, but his current military and intelligence picks are true warrior scholars. And they carry enough weight to normalize some of the craziness that is going on.

 

[Max E.]

I agree 100%, the sign of poor/failed leadership is when you need to pin your failings on someone else. But this is one area where Trump has deftinitely not created a precedent, Obama was blaming Bush well into his second term, but the media didnt choose to frame it that way.

I mean how bad would Trump have gotten mocked if he tried to pull the stunt Obama did in the media, Obama was a narcissist like Trump so he always loved saying "I" "I" "I" instead of "We" he wasnt as bad as Trump like that but its pretty fucking embarassing that he was able to get away with pulling the pin on Iraq letting the country turn into a cluster fuck, and only tried to shift the blame years later when it back fired.

I agree on both points.

I didn't like how his first reaction was to blame Obama and second reaction was to say that there was some information that was gathered.

What made JFK memorable was that he accepted responsibility for Bay of Pigs.

Personally, I like Trump's military advisor picks. I'm not a fan of anyone else he has as advisors, but his current military and intelligence picks are true warrior scholars. And they carry enough weight to normalize some of the craziness that is going on.

 

[Optionpro007]

I agree 100%, the sign of poor/failed leadership is when you need to pin your failings on someone else. But this is one area where Trump has deftinitely not created a precedent, Obama was blaming Bush well into his second term, but the media didnt choose to frame it that way.

I mean how bad would Trump have gotten mocked if he tried to pull the stunt Obama did in the media, Obama was a narcissist like Trump so he always loved saying "I" "I" "I" instead of "We" he wasnt as bad as Trump like that but its pretty fucking embarassing that he was able to get away with pulling the pin on Iraq letting the country turn into a cluster fuck, and only tried to shift the blame years later when it back fired.

Awesome find!

 

[Cuddles]

I personally find a difference between sex between consenting adults and going up to a women you've just met and grabbing her by the pussy. But that's just me and my crazy lefty self of course. I'm a Libertarian so I have this bizarre idea that ones sexual activity is private matter. If for example Trump had walked up to that [those] woman [women] he really didn't know and said, "excuse me mam, but would it be ok if I grabbed your pussy?" and they answered, "sure, please do, I'd love that." I'd have no problem with it, as long has he didn't brag about it later, which of course he would never do, without her [their] permission.

To be fair, in the context of the conversation, permission was implied. "They let you grab them by the pussy". Now, I personally thought it'd be the end of Trump because the comment was crude and inappropriate which meant the loss of the women vote, but this is one where I agree things were misrepresented. I can't pick and choose context when he's implying most immigrants are rapists and then do a 180 when it suits some narrative. The irony here is if some immigrant said the same thing he'd be a rapefugee.

One can argue that a woman won't fight back the grabbing of the pussy against some millionaire and so he's abusing his status, but one can also argue that Trump surrounds himself w/gold diggers who are ok with it. The tragedy here is we've devolved to a point where someone who talks like that and yes, potentially bullies women into sex is the smart choice to lead the nation.

I recommend you watch the NY Times interview of that older lady who got fondled by trump on a plane back in the 80's. She said herself that she was ok fooling around w/the guy, even getting felt up above the waist, but once he went down there he was a predator somehow. We act shocked like this doesn't happen in every night club in every city on every Thrs-Sat., often outside the venues in public view and w/o a signed consent form.

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

At 1:10 she starts what is obviously a carefully rehearsed putdown of the families' devastating complaint about her lying to them. She has to tread carefully here because she can't just say they are part of the vast right wing conspiracy. So she subtly suggests that they were so overcome by grief they couldn't comprehend plain words spoken to them. The condescension is breathtaking.

The key here is not what she knew or didn't know, even though we know that she was very well aware that this was a planned attack made possible by her Libya policy. The key is that she lacked the humanity to just say she misspoke or was misinformed. Instead she had to drag these family members through the mud and essentially say they were delusional. It was a telling moment.

 

[Cuddles]

I agree 100%, the sign of poor/failed leadership is when you need to pin your failings on someone else. But this is one area where Trump has deftinitely not created a precedent, Obama was blaming Bush well into his second term, but the media didnt choose to frame it that way.

I mean how bad would Trump have gotten mocked if he tried to pull the stunt Obama did in the media, Obama was a narcissist like Trump so he always loved saying "I" "I" "I" instead of "We" he wasnt as bad as Trump like that but its pretty fucking embarassing that he was able to get away with pulling the pin on Iraq letting the country turn into a cluster fuck, and only tried to shift the blame years later when it back fired.

It was a signed agreement w/the Iraqi government. We could've stayed but let's not act like the republicans and right media would not have just twisted that around, saying Obama is reneging on international deals, how we're losing credibility in the international community for not keeping our promises and are being colonizers, how we're unnecessarily putting our troops at risk for a war nobody wants in a country nobody cares about. And guess what, every right winger would've lapped it up, and we'd be having this discussion just the same. Was Trump's whole platform not on non-interventionism? How's that working out?

And tbh, I think pulling out was a mistake, but I've seen how the right dances to the tune fox, et al play that month.

 

[piezoe]

At 1:10 she starts what is obviously a carefully rehearsed putdown of the families' devastating complaint about her lying to them. She has to tread carefully here because she can't just say they are part of the vast right wing conspiracy. So she subtly suggests that they were so overcome by grief they couldn't comprehend plain words spoken to them. The condescension is breathtaking.

The key here is not what she knew or didn't know, even though we know that she was very well aware that this was a planned attack made possible by her Libya policy. The key is that she lacked the humanity to just say she misspoke or was misinformed. Instead she had to drag these family members through the mud and essentially say they were delusional. It was a telling moment.

Thank you so much. I personally did not find any "attack" there.

 

[Max E.]

It was a signed agreement w/the Iraqi government. We could've stayed but let's not act like the republicans and right media would not have just twisted that around, saying Obama is reneging on international deals, how we're losing credibility in the international community for not keeping our promises and are being colonizers, how we're unnecessarily putting our troops at risk for a war nobody wants in a country nobody cares about. And guess what, every right winger would've lapped it up, and we'd be having this discussion just the same. Was Trump's whole platform not on non-interventionism? How's that working out?

And tbh, I think pulling out was a mistake, but I've seen how the right dances to the tune fox, et al play that month.

Bottom line if Obama wanted to stay he could have stayed, he loudly took credit for the exit when it was politically expedient, then he decided to shift gears when it blew up in his face. Im not going to pretend im some genius when it comes to that as i thought just pulling the pin and bailing was the best idea at the time too.

But clearly that decision turned out to be a colossal disaster, and now that it blew up in his face Obama wants to make it out as if he wasnt the one who made the call when he spent a half a year campaigning on it while it was politically expedient.

Then not only that screw up, but Obama and Hillary decided regime change was still a good idea after that, which makes them even dumber than Bush, we saw what happened in Iraq, then Obama and Hillary decided regime change was a good idea in libya, syria, egypt, etc....... They didnt even learn the lesson from the train wreck in Iraq, they all believed in the Bush doctrine, "If we can just spread democracy in the middle east they will all turn more liberal"

LOL, the neocons of old were actually smarter than us when they put all these dictators in charge in the first place. The only way these people can be ruled is with an iron fist.