defining a living thing

Rearden Metal · Oct 21, 2003

GG, a good question was asked above- is your dog on a vegetarian diet? If so, I bet he hates it.

Instead of your unreasonable goal of all people becoming herbivores, how about just implementing some minimal animal rights standards for farms? Quick, 100% painless slaughter, without any live animals watching would be a good start. Granting farm animals reasonable living space, and ending the torture of veal calves would also be a positive step.

I'm more than willing to pay a bit more for my meat, if it would be produced humanely.

Doubter · Oct 21, 2003

Instead of your unreasonable goal of all people becoming herbivores, how about just implementing some minimal animal rights standards for farms? Quick, 100% painless slaughter, without any live animals watching would be a good start. Granting farm animals reasonable living space, and ending the torture of veal calves would also be a positive step.

I'm more than willing to pay a bit more for my meat, if it would be produced humanely.
Reardne Metal
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Reasonable thoughts. The humane society does a decent job of going after abusers. Mostly they find neglected or starved animals on the reports of neighbors or passers by. These are not commercial operations though, usually.

The confined aspect of baby calves that are not raised on their mothers (veal) is really dictated by sanitary and health factors. Basically if they are not comfortable they won't gain hence no profit. The hutches (small narrow pens) are narrow for a reason, if they turn around too easily they crap in their food or water and hence are more likely to get diseases. The sanitation is much more effective in this practice. They are kept alone at the youngest ages to keep from spreading diseases. They tend to want to lick one another in unsanitary places and suck on the undesirable body parts of their roommates which spreads disease. Ears are a particularly popular target for simulated sucking since mom is not around. You can always tell the most popular suckee by the cleanliness of their ears. Usually this is confined to dairy calves who have to be weaned (taken away from their mothers) at birth again for two reasons. 1. The cows produce milk for you. 2. The tremendous amount of milk that a dairy cow produces would kill her calf in the first few days from overeating and scours. After being taken away they are hand fed colostrum milk for a day or two so they get the antibodies they need and then they gradually go to artificial milk. Most veal comes from castrated male dairy calves who have very little other practical or economic use. The females go on to milk and have calves and are very valuable in that role. Nearly all beef calves are raised on their mothers until 6-8 months and have a very free and natural life during that time.

Gordon Gekko · Oct 21, 2003

Quote from Rearden Metal:

Instead of your unreasonable goal of all people becoming herbivores, how about just implementing some minimal animal rights standards for farms? Quick, 100% painless slaughter, without any live animals watching would be a good start. Granting farm animals reasonable living space, and ending the torture of veal calves would also be a positive step.

I'm more than willing to pay a bit more for my meat, if it would be produced humanely.

yes, imo, here is what we should do--as intelligent humans, not wild animals (like TM_Direct).

1) make slaughtering more humane. i agree with your suggestions.

2) reduce amount of meat we consume. meat eaters should think about the animals; their living conditions, how they are killed, etc.

3) as science progresses and we can do more with genetic engineering, eventually we should grow meat instead of breeding animals with feelings for slaughter.

aphexcoil · Oct 21, 2003

Quote from Gordon Gekko:

3) as science progresses and we can do more with genetic engineering, eventually we should grow meat instead of breeding animals with feelings for slaughter.

This is what I don't understand. If you believe that there is nothing after death, then what is the problem of killing animals? They were going to die at some point -- so what's wrong with quickening the process so I can enjoy my pizza's, hotdogs and hamburgers?

Gordon Gekko · Oct 21, 2003

Quote from aphexcoil:

This is what I don't understand. If you believe that there is nothing after death, then what is the problem of killing animals? They were going to die at some point -- so what's wrong with quickening the process so I can enjoy my pizza's, hotdogs and hamburgers?

are you serious?

you're going to die someday, too. do you want to live a miserable life and watch your family be brutally slaughtered before you are, too? since you and your family are going to die someday, why don't we just do this and get it over with?

also, we BREED these animals. most of these animals wouldn't exist if it wasn't for us wanting their meat. you made a circular argument. yeah, they're going to die anyway BECAUSE WE CREATED THEM WITH THE INTENT OF KILLING THEM.

aphexcoil · Oct 21, 2003

Quote from Gordon Gekko:

are you serious?

you're going to die someday, too. do you want to live a miserable life and watch your family be brutally slaughtered before you are, too? since you and your family are going to die someday, why don't we just do this and get it over with?

The fallacy of your argument is that you assume that I believe in the same things that you believe in. So don't support an argument with your beliefs and then shoot down someone else's argument against your argument using THEIR beliefs. Isn't that counterintuitive?

pisspotpete · Oct 21, 2003

I submit myself as prima facia evidence that fully grown human bodies CAN be produced without a brain!

Gordon Gekko · Oct 21, 2003

applying the golden rule and libertarian principles to other animals, as well as humans.

Rearden Metal · Oct 21, 2003

Quote from Gordon Gekko:

applying the golden rule and libertarian principles to other animals, as well as humans.

Um....actually this is one rare point where I strongly disagree with the principles of Objectivism/Libertarianism, which claim that animals deserve ZERO government protection from abuses/torture.

You may wish to restate that...because I'm sure you don't want Libertarian principles applied to this issue.

Gordon Gekko · Oct 21, 2003

Quote from Rearden Metal:

Um....actually this is one rare point where I strongly disagree with the principles of Objectivism/Libertarianism, which claim that animals deserve ZERO government protection from abuses/torture.

You may wish to restate that...because I'm sure you don't want Libertarian principles applied to this issue.

ok, maybe you are correct. i don't know everything about libertarianism. i've previously said that i'm not a full blown libertarian. also, i said libertarian principles; what i meant was how libertarianism is with humans. i think we should try more to apply human libertarianism to other animals.

even if nature is a brutal, no mercy, survival of the fittest, and we naturally dominate other animals, it's not like we have to be assholes about it; that's what i mean. i'm not saying let the cow population ruin the lives of humans, but all us animals should try to get along the best we can. right now we definitely do not treat other animals the best we can.