Creationism vs. evolution: Whose God is making America richer?



jem said:
yeah... the difference is that stu and fc create their own bullshit... while we point to real science



Yeah, that's pretty funny. One has to wonder if jerm really believes what he writes. According to him, the scientists say that universe is fine tuned and there is no science showing that AGW is true. Two very absurd positions.
 
yeah... the difference is that stu and fc create their own bullshit... while we point to real science like fhl just did.

why the hell do those trolls reject science?

its obvious to anyone who does a search... we don't have a complete plausible pathway from non life to life.

its should not be a debate and you and others to link to science and tell the trolls to shut up.

perhaps you enjoy it?

I don't understand how you can say Science proves God either does, or does not exist. To me, you guys argue incessantly over a topic that is beyond our ability to understand. That's why the word is "faith" - because it requires belief absent proof. If it were proven, it wouldn't be faith at all, but simply "belief".

And no, I certainly do not enjoy it.
 
I think it's time we move beyond trying to prove Abiogenesis on this planet, (life evolving from non life) something which goes as far back as a theory that Aristotle put forth. Statistically speaking it seems impossible for that to have happened here on earth. It is much more likely that the theory of Panspermia,(life micro bacteria from outside of our plant), is what we should be pursuing. It still leaves the question of where did that life originate from, but I'm comfortable with the theory that life itself, the most basic elements, did not originate here on earth. However, Abiogenesis did have to occur somewhere, at sometime, in some way. We have only experienced evolution on this planet. Why that gets people of faith in such a twist I really don't understand.
 
but... I have never said that science says there is a God.
that is the lie of the trolls they attribute to me to make me lose credibility in the eyes of people not paying attention any more.

I would not say science proves there is a God.


I write that scientists state the constants of our universe appear finely tuned and that in the argot there is therefore fine tuning of the constants of the standard model.

and then state that scientists have listed the possible explanations for it.

I have never said that the evidence means there is a Tuner only that a Tuner is one possible explanation.




I don't understand how you can say Science proves God either does, or does not exist. To me, you guys argue incessantly over a topic that is beyond our ability to understand. That's why the word is "faith" - because it requires belief absent proof. If it were proven, it wouldn't be faith at all, but simply "belief".

And no, I certainly do not enjoy it.
 
wow the troll just acknowledged that there is no proof that life evolved from non life.
good work troll there is hope that you will stop lying about science.


note... less than a month ago the troll wrote this...
"...Besides, there is plenty of science showing how abiogenesis happened. Only a fool would think God did it. So of course you do."

http://www.elitetrader.com/et/index.php?threads/hawking-god-did-not-create-universe.206063/page-25




OMG !!! They don't know the exact pathway for chemistry to become life !! Stop the presses!

As far as evolution, evolution did not create life, it only acted on it after it started. So some dumb born again Christian chemists looking for how evolution started life is barking up the wrong tree.

Evolution however is not even close to being in doubt. It's as true as any other fact. Except that God is real. That is not a fact.
 
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but... I have never said that science says there is a God.
that is the lie of the trolls they attribute to me to make me lose credibility in the eyes of people not paying attention any more.

I would not say science proves there is a God.


I write that scientists state the constants of our universe appear finely tuned and that in the argot there is therefore fine tuning of the constants of the standard model.

and then state that scientists have listed the possible explanations for it.

I have never said that the evidence means there is a Tuner only that a Tuner is one possible explanation.

Well, that's all I'm saying. Science can't prove God, and it can't disprove God. End of story. Why so much effort is wasted debating the rest of this stuff is, to me mind you, superfluous.
 
"
Darwin's God
How Religion Drives Science and Why it Matters
Thursday, May 15, 2014

Evolution Professor: Orphans Not a Problem for Evolution
Fact Checking the Evolutionists

In my previous post I discussed Joel Velasco’s claim, in his recent debate with Paul Nelson, that biological designs fall into a nested hierarchy. Velasco is by no means alone in making this bizarre claim. It is not controversial that it is not true, yet evolutionists routinely insist that, as Richard Dawkins once put it, genes across a range of species fall into a “perfect hierarchy, a perfect family tree.” If, like many, your first question is “what are they thinking?” then go to the [1:33:21] mark in the Nelson-Velasco debate where for the final few minutes of his response segment, Velasco sheds light on the closing of the evolutionary mind.

Nelson had brought up the problem of ORFans—genes that are unique to a particular species. They contradict common ancestry’s nested hierarchy model and when they were first discovered evolutionists figured they would go away as more genomes were decoded. But that didn’t happen. We now have an explosion of genomic data and, yes, more and more ORFans have been discovered.

Velasco addressed this problem with several arguments. First, Velasco reassured the audience that there isn’t much to be concerned with here because “Every other puzzle we’ve ever encountered in the last 150 years has made us even more certain of a fact that we already knew, that we’re all related.” In other words, evolution has a track record we can rely on.

Unfortunately that too is not true. In fact practically every major prediction of evolution has failed. For example, one of those puzzles was the finding of long stretches of identical, unconstrained DNA in otherwise distant species. Such a finding, an evolutionist had told me years earlier, would falsify evolution, period. His point was that evolution was falsifiable. That was yet another false claim. That finding of identical, unconstrained DNA did not so much as put a dent in the evolutionist’s certainty (and yes, he is still believes in evolution).

When their expectations turn out to be false, evolutionists respond by adding more epicycles to their theory that the species arose spontaneously from chance events. But that doesn’t mean the science has confirmed evolution as Velasco suggests. True, evolutionists have remained steadfast in their certainty, but that says more about evolutionists than about the empirical science.

In fact Velasco’s appeal here to “all that other evidence” (my paraphrase) is typical. Yes, you can raise minor issues around the edges that have not yet been resolved, but we’ve got this mountain of rock solid, compelling, overwhelming evidence proving evolution beyond any reasonable doubt.

This is yet another form of theory protectionism. It shifts attention away from a theoretical failure, appealing to a mythical, non existent, list of proof texts. Aside from the problem that no such set of compelling evidence exists, it is irrelevant. The question in hand is how evidence X (in this case unique genes) bears on the theory, regardless of the other evidence.

Velasco’s next argument was to suggest that this ORFan problem was really nothing more than a semantic misunderstanding—a confusion of terms. Because these are unique genes, ORFans also go by the name of “orphans.” It is nothing more than a clever homophone that creationists have surreptitiously exploited to confuse people. As Velasco explained: “first of all, it’s important to understand, Paul says, ‘Oh these are genes without any ancestors.’ Well, no. It’s like, ‘Oh the name implies it.’ Well, this is one of these cases of scientists, sort of, thinking it sounds cool and, sort of, just playing into the hands of creationists.”

Sorry but this has nothing to do with creationists. And no, there is no such confusion of terms. The play on words is not misleading. Do these genes have ancestors? Velasco’s response (“Well, no”) is a misrepresentation of the empirical science. Of course we don’t find ancestors. That’s why evolutionists were surprised, and that’s why they figured the problem would go away as more genomes were decoded. But that too was false and we cannot now just assert “Well, no.”

But Velasco continued with his denial of the empirical evidence: “So the things that we label ORFAN genes, don’t necessarily actually have no relatives. They’re actually just open reading frames that, right now, you can’t get significant homology.” (Note that Velasco here means “identity” not “homology.” Homology either is or is not. Like pregnancy, you can’t be a little bit homologous.) Velasco’s argument here is guilty of what he just finished criticizing the creationists of—confusing the terms. He says there is no problem here because, after all, these data are really just open reading frames for which, right now, there is no “significant homology.”

Huh? That’s the point. Velasco can spin the terms, but that doesn’t change the evidence. That these are open reading frames without similarities is what evolutionists did not expect. It doesn’t fit the theory.

Velasco’s next argument was to give a misleading example of ORFans arising from distantly related species: “First of all, lots of it is just the lack of information. Right. So you sequence this bacteria species which is very distantly related from other bacteria, and it has this gene that you don’t recognize any of its relatives. Why? Well it might have shared a common ancestor a billion years ago, with anything else you’ve discovered. So, it could have changed a lot in that time.”

This is not at all representative of the ORFan data. In fact, we find ORFans not only between neighboring species, but between different variants of the same species. By raising this example of “very distantly related” species, Velasco trivializes the ORFan problem and misrepresents the science.

Velasco next continued along this line, arguing that the ORFan problem is nothing more than a gap in our knowledge. For the more we know about a species, the more the ORFan problem goes away. And which species do we know the most about? Ourselves of course. And we have no ORFans: “Well what about humans, we know a lot about humans. How many orphan genes are in humans? What do you think? Zero.”

Again this is a misrepresentation of the science. First, our overall knowledge of a species is irrelevant. ORFans come from genomic data, period. One could know nothing at all about a species except its genome and nonetheless be perfectly accurate in knowing its ORFans.

Second, dozens of unique genes have been found in the human genome. And that could be just the tip of the iceberg for, as Nelson adroitly pointed out, early work on the human genome downplayed long stretches of unique human DNA because it didn’t fit the theory of evolution.

Next Velasco argued that while new ORFans are discovered with each new genome that is decoded, the trend is slowing and is suggestive that in the long run relatives for these ORFans will be found: “In fact if you trend the absolute number going up, as opposed to the percentage of orphan genes in organisms, that number is going down.”

But so what? This is what one would expect if unique genes were common. Velasco seems to concede some uncertainty here, but in typical fashion concludes triumphantly: “I can make some bets though. I think in 50 years this will not be seen as a problem, in fact it’s not seen as a problem now.”

So there you have it. One failed defense after another resulting in complete and utter victory. Not only are ORFans not at all likely to be a problem 50 years from now, in fact they are not even a problem now. As usual, evolutionists lose every battle but always win the war. I guess the species really do fall into a nested hierarchy after all.

~DanieL S"

https://www.facebook.com/EvolutionIsALie/posts/449300651839736
 
a. and I agree

b. but, partly, because I really enjoy the standard model of physics vs M theory.

Well, that's all I'm saying. Science can't prove God, and it can't disprove God. End of story. Why so much effort is wasted debating the rest of this stuff is, to me mind you, superfluous.
 
This thread is rapidly approaching the alert threshold when stu will appear to take his customary place opposite Jem and the two will then argue pointlessly until the end of the world on a topic neither can either prove or disprove.

Every day with a thread having words like "God" or "religion" or "faith" in the title on the front page of P+R increases the chance of a stu appearance by approximately 5%.

Yet you were here before me and made a number of posts!
Others, but particularly Jem, invariably spout off before I do, so the chances of their appearance must be far higher. Had you thought of that?

I've never started a thread about anything religious nevertheless, religious superstition is an interesting topic and also extremely topical. Are you really suggesting it's pointless to discuss it?


Whether ideas of god can be proved or disproved is not really what's being argued. Trying to directly or surreptitiously squeeze god into science and attempting to equate religious belief to science is the point here. That's what many, Jem in particular, dishonestly attempt to do. That's what inevitably gets disputed.

Are you suggesting people just shouldn't respond to that kind of ridiculous religious nonsense at all?
 
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