Cowards!

[Ricter]

People never want to admit that inflation is a hidden tax on the poor and middle class.

Then growing productivity is a hidden rebate. Which is why, in spite of two centuries of inflation, the poor and middle class are materially better off today then they were then. The recent disconnect between that productivity growth, and wages, is problematic, but its cause is not "too much government interference".

 

[Lucrum]

Then growing productivity is a hidden rebate. Which is why, in spite of two centuries of inflation, the poor and middle class are materially better off today then they were then...

And back then they got no welfare but now they NEED it? WTF?

 

[Tsing Tao]

Then growing productivity is a hidden rebate. Which is why, in spite of two centuries of inflation, the poor and middle class are materially better off today then they were then. The recent disconnect between that productivity growth, and wages, is problematic, but its cause is not "too much government interference".

Growing productivity is a rebate to whom? If a farmer produces more wheat, you would think the price of wheat should come down. That's supply and demand, of course. But if the currency is being devalued, then growing productivity has to work harder - much harder.

Pick a commodity, any commodity. Let's compare how much we could get for $1 in 1940 and how much we can get for $1 today.

 

[piezoe]

But the free market apparently "wants" to pay illegals less for their labor. If government interferes with its regulation and enforcement, this market will be distorted. The first thing you'll see, as much of this occurs in agriculture, is another food prices spike.

; )

There is no free market in minimum wage labor in the U.S., so there is hardly any point in discussing minimum wages from a free market perspective. To have a free market both buyer and seller have to have reasonable alternatives available and be able to walk.

We have sufficient labor laws, though the fines could use some stiffening. What we lack is effective enforcement. The distortion in the labor market I have referred to is the distortion caused by wages being far below the true cost of labor for U.S. citizens. Naturally one wants to compare wages to U.S. standards of living, not Mexican! The true minimum cost of labor is the cost of housing, feeding, clothing, transporting and providing medical care for a minimum wage worker at minimum U.S. standards. Figuring that out is what economists are for.The flood of illegals willing to work at below the true U.S. labor cost is causing a distortion in the U.S. labor market. Naturally, the true cost varies from region to region, so setting the Federal minimum wage will always involve compromise. Let the economists figure out what it should be. Regardless the current Federal minimum is way too low everywhere, and that's causing a distortion in the U.S. minimum wage labor market. The consequences of that are cost shifting and an overloaded welfare system.

I don't agree that agriculture in general will be much affected. The bulk of it is on a huge scale, highly mechanized, and with very low labor costs. But some sub-segments with proportionally higher labor costs, produce for example, will be affected more than others. We would see the cost of fresh produce rise some, for example.

_______________________
After you die and have gone to Libertarian Heaven you'll get to experience a "Free Market" in minimum wage labor, which won't matter because no one will have to work and everyone will sit around playing a lyre and eating perfectly ripe grapes with no blemishes.

 

[piezoe]

Let's talk about incentive. In my last few years prior to joining the Navy (early 80's), I quit a restaurant management job I had been transferred to in a small town. Within a few months my savings were spent. I didn't seek welfare or food stamps and I didn't want to re-locate to a bigger town where I could stay in that line of work. I took temp local jobs on the back of tractors throwing hay bails in one instant, and pitchforking seed melons in another. It was grueling work and paid minimum wage, far less than I had been making. My incentive? To pay my bills, which I did.

I guess I didn't grow up in a world where I thought I was beneath certain types of work. Regarding minimum wage: When I began my restaurant jobs (and several other min wage types of jobs starting at age 14), I got beyond minimum wages by working hard, willing to take the long hours, gaining experience, and climbing the ladder through supervisor to management positions...easily done in many minimum wage startup jobs. I was willing to live in apartments (starting at age 16) I could afford at my income levels and lived within that lifestyle until I could afford to move up. (I was living in my own place during my senior year in high school, and living on minimum wage at that time thru a co-op at my high school {shelf stocker at a large dept. store}).

Unthinkable to today's pampered, spoiled babies, many of whom still live with their parents at 30 something.

I made 12k (salary) a year as manager in the late 70's. Min wage was around $2.20. What should have I made as manager if min wage had been $15? As asst mgr prior to mgr for same co, I made around 4, and got time and a half. I worked 80 hours a week then. What should I have made if min wage was, again, $15.

Do your calculations in constant dollars please and get back to us. The information you need to do it is easily available on the net. Thanks.

 

[piezoe]

No honest job should be "beneath" anybody. My 1st job out of HS was as a janitor... making minimum wage swabbing toilets and mopping floors. Never even considered going onto government assistance/food stamps.

My Grandfather told me, "If you plan on eating regular, you'd better plan on working".... "The world doesn't owe you a living".

Too bad HE isn't running the country today. At least the parasites would be doing SOMETHING... rather that living a subsidized life style and voting DemoCrap!

"No honest job should be "beneath" anybody."
If you were without a job and I was willing to pay you $5.00/hr to pressure wash some trucks that had transported chickens to a processing plant, would you willingly accept the work, or would it be "beneath you"? How about $7.25/hr to clean public toilets in the bus station. Will you willingly accept, or would that be beneath you?

I believe that people who work, whether full or part time, should be paid a minimum hourly wage on the basis of what would be a minimum living wage for a full time worker. The real parasites are the ones paying $7.25/hr and letting the taxpayer pick up the difference between $7.25 and a minimum living wage.

 

[piezoe]

Something that should be mentioned regarding min wage then and now. Back in the 70's, over half the min wage jobs I took were full time, with plenty of time and a half overtime avail...especially in the restaurants. I believe that has now changed. Often the overtime made the difference.

Thank you for mentioning that. If we want to have a rational discussion it is important that we not get hung up in fantasy but deal with the economy as it is today in the U.S.

 

[piezoe]

People never want to admit that inflation is a hidden tax on the poor and middle class.

That is extremely important to recognize, IMO.

 

[fhl]

Everything piezoe has said above is a recipe to destroy an economy.

You cannot dictate prosperity by fiat.

 

[piezoe]

Sounds like we need to stop printing money and deficit spending.

Change our priorities as a nation and the rest will take care of itself. Let's swap 2200 F35s for a national high speed passenger rail system and the best public schools in the world.

Everything piezoe has said above is a recipe to destroy an economy.

You cannot dictate prosperity by fiat.

Of course you can't, but what does that have to do with a discussion of whether the minimum wage should be raised?