Cowards!

I'll acknowledge that. A job really isn't a freebie is it? Working under the table in your Uncles restaurant isn't really a freebie is it? Why is it food stamp fraud in Arizona is an illegal alien problem, but food stamp fraud in Chicago is a legal black citizen problem? Don't lecture me on what a libertarian is if you are not going to vote a straight libertarian ticket in November. I'm pretty sure I agree with everything the libertarian party stands for, but I have my own ideas which are certainly not libertarian, and some would call leftist. I don't need some one who just goes to a website and reads and then pontificates on who is a libertarian and who is not. You can judge all you want. I vote. I true libertarian does not just talk, he is the one who votes. So why don't you just move on and vote (if you even do) for that tired old dying republican party. Like the OP said, they are all just cowards.

good day

Dude, the discussion isn't the voting a Libertarian ticket, it's about what drives illegals to come to the US. Stop trying to change the subject.

A job to an illegal IS a freebie. They are not authorized to work in the United States. Coming here for work is illegal. Why is this so hard to understand? I'm not saying they don't work hard, but that's irrelevant.

Food stamp fraud in Chicago is the same problem it is with illegal aliens, with the one notable exception that legal citizens aren't moving to Chicago to commit food stamp fraud, and Chicago doesn't have a legal citizen migration problem.

As for the rest of the stuff in your response - it's just blah blah blah. Nothing to do with the subject.
 
Illegals are engaged in fraud from the minute they get here. Fake ID's, fake SSNs, welfare fraud, etc. The emphasis in these programs is getting as many people on benefits as possible, not checking for fraud.

The libertarian position on immigration is hopelessly naive. It's a copout to say well, eleimnate welfare then you can have ooen borders. We're not going to do away with welfare. We are not going to have beggars in the streets like India or mexico. And even if we did, they'd still come here.

Do away with secure borders and you do away with your country. It's that simple.
 
Illegals are engaged in fraud from the minute they get here. Fake ID's, fake SSNs, welfare fraud, etc. The emphasis in these programs is getting as many people on benefits as possible, not checking for fraud.

The libertarian position on immigration is hopelessly naive. It's a copout to say well, eleimnate welfare then you can have ooen borders. We're not going to do away with welfare. We are not going to have beggars in the streets like India or mexico. And even if we did, they'd still come here.

Do away with secure borders and you do away with your country. It's that simple.

It's not hopelessly naive, AAA, just because you don't like it. The Libertarian position says to open borders, sure, but if you don't want to eliminate welfare (or if, as you say, it will never happen) then you can't have open borders! It's just that simple. And "open borders" doesn't mean anyone who wants to can stroll across the border and do whatever the hell they want.

Why don't you read up a bit on the position you're always so keen to attack.

http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration
 
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...e-That-ll-Incentivize-A-Tsunami-Of-Illegality

Sessions:
"...President Obama has openly reaffirmed his unconstitutional plan to nullify our nation’s sovereign laws, issuing executive amnesty and work permits to millions of illegal immigrants. In so doing, he will wipe away American workers’ lawful immigration protections. Illegal workers will be instantly allowed to take precious jobs directly from struggling Americans in every occupation in America. Countless more unlawful workers will pour across the border and overstay their visas. These executive actions will incentivize a tsunami of illegality...

..."

Well there is an easy cure for this Tsunami. There are few to no employers in the U.S. who would not prefer to hire a U.S. citizen over an illegal immigrant were the wage they had to pay the same. They hire illegals because they can pay them less and, usually, get away with it. The government does not vigorously enforce labor laws against employers, and when the employer gets caught, the fines are not sufficient to make the hiring of illegals uneconomical.

Why not make the hiring of illegals unattractive by raising the minimum wage to $10-$15/hr coupled with very vigorous enforcement of the labor laws. The cost of better enforcement can come out of reduction in border control expense. Then you'd see competition in the labor market. The illegals will be out of a job and go home. The low wage U.S. citizen worker currently competes badly against the low wage illegal worker. At present, those who must meet living expenses via minimum wage can't do it on their own, and some choose to milk the welfare system rather than work for a ridiculous wage. (Illegals are willing to accept a lower living standard and may be paid in cash with few deductions.) Those adult U.S. citizen workers that do choose to work for a low wage end up being subsidized by someone else, often the taxpayer.

The old saw that if we raise the minimum wage everything will adjust upwards by an equivalent amount, and we will be right back where we started, is utter nonsense. That's never happened in the past. Why would this time be different? Some have claimed that a rise in the minimum would result in a wage price spiral. They don't understand the factors that must be present in the economy for that to happen. Currently we have an exceptionally weak labor market! The indirect effect on prices from a rise in the minimum should be small because only a fraction of U.S. citizens are working below the new minimum target, the cost of low wage labor is only a small (often tiny) fraction of product cost, and as long as competition is present, a part of increased labor cost will be eaten by management. Mind you, the minimum must not be raised above the true cost of minimum wage labor, or a distortion in the other direction will be created and some of the predictions of the uninformed would then come true.

What's odd is that we have republicans resisting a minimum wage hike, ignoring weak enforcement of labor laws (you never hear either the democrats or republicans clamoring for enforcement against employers!) and spending all their efforts in a failing attempt to shut off the border at very high expense to the taxpayer. This is so inconsistent it's almost schizophrenic. The best solution to the problem of illegals flooding the low wage market is right in front of their eyes. If you want to shut down the flood of illegals, then remove their incentive! You'll save a whale of a lot on border control and create a much less distorted labor market. (The republicans are the party of business. Sadly the average businessman tends to be anti-intellectual and not capable of rational thought when it comes to the economy and government policy. Some of them even believe in supplyside, trickledown economics, despite this economic fad having long been shown not to work as envisioned. This propensity of business toward weak thinking is reflected in their political party. But please, however, do not interpret this remark as a ringing endorsement of the democrats.)

By the way, what I advocate would make a sensible "open border" policy far more feasible than does our present, illogical approach to problems in the U.S. labor market.
 
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Ditto!

Though a Libertarian/Darwinist at heart, I'll be voting the Republican ticket. Not because I endorse their platform but because the DemoCrap/Commie juggernaut needs to be stopped... that is if you care about America's future.

:(

I'm the same to the letter! Love my liberty loving Libertarians as I am one! Just can't vote for one who has zero chance, and in an election that could be a "fire extinguisher" for America.
 
Well there is an easy cure for this Tsunami. There are few to no employers in the U.S. who would not prefer to hire a U.S. citizen over an illegal immigrant were the wage they had to pay the same. They hire illegals because they can pay them less and, usually, get away with it. The government does not vigorously enforce labor laws against employers, and when the employer gets caught, the fines are not sufficient to make the hiring of illegals uneconomical.

Why not make the hiring of illegals unattractive by raising the minimum wage to $10-$15/hr coupled with very vigorous enforcement of the labor laws. The cost of better enforcement can come out of reduction in border control expense. Then you'd see competition in the labor market. The illegals will be out of a job and go home. The low wage U.S. citizen worker currently competes badly against the low wage illegal worker. At present, those who must meet living expenses via minimum wage can't do it on their own, and some choose to milk the welfare system rather than work for a ridiculous wage. (Illegals are willing to accept a lower living standard and may be paid in cash with few deductions.) Those adult U.S. citizen workers that do choose to work for a low wage end up being subsidized by someone else, often the taxpayer.

The old saw that if we raise the minimum wage everything will adjust upwards by an equivalent amount, and we will be right back where we started, is utter nonsense. That's never happened in the past. Why would this time be different? Some have claimed that a rise in the minimum would result in a wage price spiral. They don't understand the factors that must be present in the economy for that to happen. Currently we have an exceptionally weak labor market! The indirect effect on prices from a rise in the minimum should be small because only a fraction of U.S. citizens are working below the new minimum target, the cost of low wage labor is only a small (often tiny) fraction of product cost, and as long as competition is present, a part of increased labor cost will be eaten by management. Mind you, the minimum must not be raised above the true cost of minimum wage labor, or a distortion in the other direction will be created and some of the predictions of the uninformed would then come true.

What's odd is that we have republicans resisting a minimum wage hike, ignoring weak enforcement of labor laws (you never hear either the democrats or republicans clamoring for enforcement against employers!) and spending all their efforts in a failing attempt to shut off the border at very high expense to the taxpayer. This is so inconsistent it's almost schizophrenic. The best solution to the problem of illegals flooding the low wage market is right in front of their eyes. If you want to shut down the flood of illegals, then remove their incentive! You'll save a whale of a lot on border control and create a much less distorted labor market. (The republicans are the party of business. Sadly the average businessman tends to be anti-intellectual and not capable of rational thought when it comes to the economy and government policy. Some of them even believe in supplyside, trickledown economics, despite this economic fad having long been shown not to work as envisioned. This propensity of business toward weak thinking is reflected in their political party. But please, however, do not interpret this remark as a ringing endorsement of the democrats.)

By the way, what I advocate would make a sensible "open border" policy far more feasible than does our present, illogical approach to problems in the U.S. labor market.

You might be interested in this:

Studies look at what happened when cities raised minimum wage

Ten years ago, San Francisco raised its minimum wage from $6.75 to $8.50 an hour, a 26 percent increase. Since then, it has gone up at regular intervals to its current $10.74 an hour, the highest big-city starting wage in the country.

The city has slapped other mandates on businesses, including paid sick leave and a requirement to provide health-care coverage or pay into a pool for uninsured residents.

What have the effects been on employment?

Almost none, according to economists at the University of California, Berkeley, who have studied San Francisco, eight other cities that raised their minimum wages in the past decade, and 21 states with higher base pay than the federal minimum. more . . .
 
You might be interested in this:

Studies look at what happened when cities raised minimum wage

Ten years ago, San Francisco raised its minimum wage from $6.75 to $8.50 an hour, a 26 percent increase. Since then, it has gone up at regular intervals to its current $10.74 an hour, the highest big-city starting wage in the country.

The city has slapped other mandates on businesses, including paid sick leave and a requirement to provide health-care coverage or pay into a pool for uninsured residents.

What have the effects been on employment?

Almost none, according to economists at the University of California, Berkeley,

LOL! Economists at Berkeley. That's almost a contradiction in logic. Of course Berkeley is going to show there's been no impact.

Big cities like San Francisco are able to take a wage increase and pass those costs on to consumers (which is why San Francisco has seen a 23.7% inflation rate over the last 10 years - and this is the government provided statistic, so you know real inflation is higher). The wage increase in this case is $2.24. A ten year period is able to absorb that small of a rise with little or any noticeable effect on prices or employment.
 
Piezoe, some of what you have to offer is sound advice. Some other, not so much. Yes, labor law should be strictly enforced. Raising the minimum wage will do little other than to eliminate some jobs. Honestly, I would say probably not very many, but it sure as hell won't create any jobs, which is what we need, job creation. Yes, we need to eliminate the incentive for illegals to come here, but the job market is secondary to the really big incentive. Anchor babies. They come here, spit out a kid and everything changes. The kid is an American citizen with all the rights and privileges of a citizen. The parent(s) benefit from this. First and foremost the likelihood of deportation goes from not very likely to zero. The whole we can't split up a family argument comes into play. Secondly they benefit financially from all the social services that automatically come into play. You show me one, just one politician with the stones to address this issue. We must take on the bastardization of the 14th amendment before any real progress can be made. Everything else is window dressing.
 
CaptainObvious, Well stated. Don't forget the whole chain migration process either. Once the family is here with an anchor baby, they can bring in grandpa and grandma, all the brothers and sisters, cousins, etc.

And let's face it, the birth citizenship part of the 14th Amendment is far from its only flaw. The 14th Amendment has been the source of more ridiculous decisions and judicial activism than the rest of the Constitution put together.
 
CaptainObvious, Well stated. Don't forget the whole chain migration process either. Once the family is here with an anchor baby, they can bring in grandpa and grandma, all the brothers and sisters, cousins, etc.

Kind of like Odumbo ...

Onyango Obama, the half brother of the president's late father, has lived in the U.S. since the 1960s. He was ordered to leave the country in 1992, but remained.

He is the second Obama family member to be found living illegally in the United States. His sister and the president's aunt, Zeituni Onyango, was granted asylum in 2010 after her first asylum request in 2002 was rejected and she was ordered deported in 2004.

She did not leave the country and continued to live in public housing in Boston.
 
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