CME - Why Smart Money Trades Spreads

Great idea.

Sept 20 CL outright margin: $7,550
Dec 20 CL outright margin: $6,000

Sept 20 - Dec 20 1x1 CL calendar spread pair margin: $2,050

Sept20-Oct20-Nov20-Dec20 1x1x1x1 CL Condor spread margin: $450

Sept20-Oct20-Nov20 1x2x1 CL Butterfly spread margin: $300

https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/en...CL&sector=CRUDE+OIL&exchange=NYM&pageNumber=1

jokertrader said:
Bone: Might be good to post the margin for say a Eurodollar butterfly so others can compare and see what they get.. but Eurodollar butterflys might not be good example since they are implied.. might be good to see on some synthetic spread like a Crude Doublefly or Condor and see what people are missing from going to a proper FCM
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A little inside baseball:

Typically, on Butterfly and Condor Spreads, you want to buy or sell the 'wings' against the 'body'.

So, for example, with a Sept20-Oct20-Nov20-Dec20 1x1x1x1 CL Condor spread, to BUY the Condor you would buy Sept and Dec(wings) and sell Oct and Nov(body).

For the Sept20-Oct20-Nov20 1x2x1 CL Butterfly, to SELL the Butterfly you would sell Sept and Nov(wings) and buy Oct(body).

Almost all of these combinations (and there are many thousands) are exchange supported. If, by chance, there is a complex futures spread that is NOT exchange supported - I will leg multiple spreads and create it in the abstract using combinations of exchange spreads. So, for example I could have on an eight legged Eurodollar spread by simply buying two concurrent Eurodollar Condors. Mind numbing possibilities.

And this is how you get a statement in the evening with 26 pages :Do_O

The other thing you should keep in mind is that even if your spread is not listed on the exchange website, or if you are trading an inter market spread with hedge ratios that deviate from the exchange listed ones - the exchange will indeed calculate and assign you a SPAN margin credit.

For example, let's say for the sake of conversation that the exchange might list a 5:2 ratio for US Treasury Fives versus Tens. Let's say that you really like the trade entry but you are hesitant about having that size of position on. If you traded the Fives versus Tens at 2:1 instead - the CME would indeed calculate and assign to you a SPAN margin credit. True - it's not a perfect or even ideal hedge; but hey, if it's more in your comfort zone then so be it.

I wish everyone good fortune ! :strong:
 
TD Ameritrade:
Sept 20 CL outright margin: $11,325
Dec 20 CL outright margin: $9000

Sept 20 - Dec 20 1x1 CL calendar spread pair margin: $3,075

Others cannot be traded as exchange spreads at TD


Large but conservative FCM:
Sept 20 CL outright margin: $8,305
Dec 20 CL outright margin: $6,600

Sept 20 - Dec 20 1x1 CL calendar spread pair margin: $2,255

Sept20-Oct20-Nov20-Dec20 1x1x1x1 CL Condor spread margin: $495

Sept20-Oct20-Nov20 1x2x1 CL Butterfly spread margin: $330

So slightly more than the CME SPAN margin but waaaaay better than TD (and i am sure IB)
 
bone said:
A little inside baseball:

Typically, on Butterfly and Condor Spreads, you want to buy or sell the 'wings' against the 'body'.

So, for example, with a Sept20-Oct20-Nov20-Dec20 1x1x1x1 CL Condor spread, to BUY the Condor you would buy Sept and Dec(wings) and sell Oct and Nov(body).

For the Sept20-Oct20-Nov20 1x2x1 CL Butterfly, to SELL the Butterfly you would sell Sept and Nov(wings) and buy Oct(body).

Almost all of these combinations (and there are many thousands) are exchange supported. If, by chance, there is a complex futures spread that is NOT exchange supported - I will leg multiple spreads and create it in the abstract using combinations of exchange spreads. So, for example I could have on an eight legged Eurodollar spread by simply buying two concurrent Eurodollar Condors. Mind numbing possibilities.

And this is how you get a statement in the evening with 26 pages :Do_O

The other thing you should keep in mind is that even if your spread is not listed on the exchange website, or if you are trading an inter market spread with hedge ratios that deviate from the exchange listed ones - the exchange will indeed calculate and assign you a SPAN margin credit.

For example, let's say for the sake of conversation that the exchange might list a 5:2 ratio for US Treasury Fives versus Tens. Let's say that you really like the trade entry but you are hesitant about having that size of position on. If you traded the Fives versus Tens at 2:1 instead - the CME would indeed calculate and assign to you a SPAN margin credit. True - it's not a perfect or even ideal hedge; but hey, if it's more in your comfort zone then so be it.

I wish everyone good fortune ! :strong:
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Could an assumption be made with trading, the greater the complexity the greater the chances of making errors?
Can one individual trading from home handle this type of trading?
 
In terms of using exchange supported spreads - it would certainly be safer than scalping from home. And at least 90 percent of the trades my clients are doing are exchange supported.

Let me explain.

For exchange spreads it is the exchange that internally matches the individual legs and creates the spread combination fill for the order. There is no external trader legging risk. Alternatively, if you were legging one spread against the other and only got filled on one leg - no real harm as you are still hedged.

The only exception would be the case where you are manually legging inter market spreads. My clients do very little of this, and I provide extensive instruction on how I personally leg spreads. In essence - I "split the middle". In other words, I will line up the order books and if, for example, I get hit on the bid for one leg I immediately hit the bid on the opposing leg. I will never try to buy the bid on one leg and sell the offer on another leg in terms of manually legging inter market spreads. So, for manually legging inter markets (which is rarely done with my clients) the case could be made that it is comparable in execution risk to scalping.

I would make the case that trading exchange supported spreads from home would be a considerably safer enterprise than scalping.

The other thing to keep in mind is that for many of my clients I encourage them to use the FCM's 24 hour execution desk for trade entry and exit. They get charged $1 per RT and if the FCM butchers the order the FCM will eat the difference and make the customer whole. They are also on station from Sunday afternoon until Friday evening.

themickey said:
Could an assumption be made with trading, the greater the complexity the greater the chances of making errors?
Can one individual trading from home handle this type of trading?
More...
 
heispark said:
Yes, I agree.
$3000 vs. $875 is quite something ....... o_O
View attachment 228171
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I contacted AMP and they set $1000 margin for this spread trading (CME margin at this time of writing is $650). My spread trading strategy is very simple so it may not work to everyone. However, if you're already AMP's client, I suggest you contact AMP before you change your broker. They are open minded I think. :thumbsup: I will stay with AMP at least for the time being. Cool! :)
 
jokertrader said:
Would u like to describe what the spread is? What products etc in general terms
I am an Amp customer and curious
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You can make a keyword search using "spread trading" in ET search feature. (Include quote marks around this keyword). :)
 
jokertrader said:
What? I was asking what spread you margined for 1000 bucks at amp... it’s ok
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My apology. I misunderstood your question. I traded NGN0-NGQ0. I trade /NG only. My data is Rithmic, platform is MotiveWave.
When you have specific spread products to trade and want to negotiate margin, try sending an email to tradedesk@ampclearing.com
 

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