catholic iphone app.

[jem]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:

"those "christians" must not be going to church."

They say they go to church...they "must not be going to your church, where they preach your take on Christianity."

"All fundamentalist church goers have had to deal with that born again once saved always saved and then back sliding."

What forced them, "all fundamentalist church goers" to deal with once saved always saved and then back sliding?

What about non fundamentalist church goers?

They don't count as Christians?

"The message you are speaking of was big in the 80s. But now all churches have had to deal with those who fell away from the church and perhaps even denounce it even though they were once "born again."

All churches?

Funny logical fallacy there...

"Some preachers got around it by saying a backslider was never really saved but you do not even hear that anymore...

you are 20 or 30 years behind the fundamentalist teachings."[b/]

20 or 30 years behind the "fundamentalist teachings?"

Now that is truly funny...but are you suggesting that only the "fundamentalist teachings" of today are the only correct version of Christianity to be followed?

Why is it that so many different sects of Christianity use the same Bible, yet have so many different views of what Christ said?

Why would any particular sect of Christianity think that they "got it right" but other sects "got it wrong."

it is clear you do not know your ass from your elbow when it comes to what Christian churches teach.

but I will explain it to you. There was a very well known evangelical preacher who was buddies with billy Graham. then he lost faith and stated he no longer believes. If once save always saved was in effect what do you do with believers who no longer believe?

Any Fundamentalists and Evangelical church more than a few years old will have back sliders. Maybe even former members who now denounce God. Therefore those churches can no longer teach once saved always saved. it leads to theological inconsistencies which border on the ridiculous. They tried to get away with saying the backslider was never a believer but too often the argument was disingenuous.


I will not think fundamentalist churches are getting the bible right when it comes to John chapter 6 vs 53 and on, so I am not a fundamentalist nor have I ever been.

People interpret the bible differently just like people "interpret" the U.S. constitution differently.

for instance you being a socialist commie, like to pretend you understand the constitution and like like to believe it says what you wish it to say.

others take time to study know that the Federal Govt was supposed to be limited in size and power.

So if you were a Christian you would be a Christian telling us that Christ says I have give more of my money to the govt in taxes.

You would tell me Christ allows abortions and the killing of children.

And I would laugh at you.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from jem:

it is clear you do not know your ass from your elbow when it comes to what Christian churches teach.

You are speaking for all Christian churches, are you?


but I will explain it to you. There was a very well known evangelical preacher who was buddies with billy Graham. then he lost faith and stated he no longer believes. If once save always saved was in effect what do you do with believers who no longer believe?

I don't do anything with them. They have the choice what to believe, when to believe, how to believe.

If Jesus exists in the manner that the various Christians believe, then Jesus will sort it out...not you nor I, nor any of the evangelical preachers, nor anyone else on earth...right?

Any Fundamentalists and Evangelical church more than a few years old will have back sliders.

Some Christians never backslide? Says who?

Again, Jesus would know...not you, nor I. Only Jesus would know what is in a person's heart...what their intent is.

Remember when Jimmy Carter caught so much flack for admitting to lusting in his heart in an interview in Playboy?

Is Jimmy going to heaven?

Maybe even former members who now denounce God.

They maybe be sliding forward on the sin scale, who can say what goes on in their hearts?

Therefore those churches can no longer teach once saved always saved.

Sure they can teach that, and some still do teach that.
You might not agree with it, but they can teach whatever they like to those who will follow.

it leads to theological inconsistencies which border on the ridiculous.

Theological inconsistencies have been around since the beginning. Why? Because human being interpret what they read. Just like the Constitution, people interpret it differently.

They tried to get away with saying the backslider was never a believer but too often the argument was disingenuous.

That is your opinion...not an established fact. There are no established facts actually that are known. Some Christian ideologies may end up being right, some wrong, all right, all wrong, none right, none wrong.

I am not in a position to judge, and neither are you, only Jesus would be the judge, right?

I will not think fundamentalist churches are getting the bible right when it comes to John chapter 6 vs 53 and on, so I am not a fundamentalist nor have I ever been.

So?

People interpret the bible differently just like people "interpret" the U.S. constitution differently.

Exactly, except that the majority of the Christians think the Bible is the word of God, and most reasonable Americans understand the Constitution is the word of a bunch of men, and subject to change through the political and legal process.

for instance you being a socialist commie, like to pretend you understand the constitution and like like to believe it says what you wish it to say.

Huh? Above you said people interpret the constitution differently, now you are a fundamentalist claiming to know the "right" way to interpret the Constitution?

Talk about inconsistency...

others take time to study know that the Federal Govt was supposed to be limited in size and power.

You can quote chapter and verse, but you can't do anything more than interpret the words the way you wish.

That's a fact of both the Constitution and the Bible.

Both are subject to interpretation because we do not have the authors of either documents here to tell us exactly what they meant at the time, what they meant for the future, etc.

We are left to our own devices...which would be reason when it comes to the Constitution, and religions faith when it comes to the Bible.

So if you were a Christian you would be a Christian telling us that Christ says I have give more of my money to the govt in taxes.

I am not a Christian, but I have never seen anything in the New Testament that talks about greed as a virtue, or that excess wealth is a virtue, or that Jesus hung with the wealthy business owners and shunned the poor and needy in his society of the day...

You would tell me Christ allows abortions and the killing of children.

It happens, and if Christ has the power to stop it, then Christ is allowing it to happen.

And I would laugh at you.

You can laugh all you like, I'll just keep on writing my responses to your "logic."

 

[jem]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:



So if you were a Christian you would be a Christian telling us that Christ says I have give more of my money to the govt in taxes.

I am not a Christian, but I have never seen anything in the New Testament that talks about greed as a virtue, or that excess wealth is a virtue, or that Jesus hung with the wealthy business owners and shunned the poor and needy in his society of the day...

You would tell me Christ allows abortions and the killing of children.

It happens, and if Christ has the power to stop it, then Christ is allowing it to happen.

And I would laugh at you.

You can laugh all you like, I'll just keep on writing my responses to your "logic."

You seem to be confusing taxes with acts of charity or helping your neighbor.

a large portion of taxes go to killing and abortions, and gluttons and sloths.

and note... we are still waiting for you show even one preacher who preaches, sin repent sin repent... over and over and over.


you made that shit up, you can change the subject all you wish... but you lie when you say Christians teach you can sin repent, sin repent... over and over.

if fact if you went to church you would understand that repent means to turn away to stop doing the sin.

when jesus forgave sin... he said you are forgiven, go and sin no more.

in terms of christian teaching repent means to stop doing the sin.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from jem:

and note... we are still waiting for you show even one preacher who preaches, sin repent sin repent... over and over and over.

calvinism teaches that.

John Calvin: "once saved, a person is always saved." As soon as one is saved, they are secure in the knowledge that they will attain heaven after death, no matter what they do during the rest of their life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from jem:

You seem to be confusing taxes with acts of charity or helping your neighbor.

Well, since according to most ideas of Christianity, we are all God's children, which makes us all related, then I am not one confused here.

Taxation if required to help all God's children would be a bad thing?

I don't know if you read this yet...but perhaps a Catholic might have a different point of view:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215611

a large portion of taxes go to killing and abortions, and gluttons and sloths.

A large portion of corporate welfare goes to gluttons and sloths, a large tax credit goes to oil companies, farmers being paid not to grow crops, corporate kickbacks, etc. Are you equally outraged?

Abortion is legal, so taxes going to a person who can't afford a legal medical procedure, doesn't seem all that injurious to society at large.

and note... we are still waiting for you show even one preacher who preaches, sin repent sin repent... over and over and over.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Introduction/repent.htm


you made that shit up, you can change the subject all you wish... but you lie when you say Christians teach you can sin repent, sin repent... over and over.

No, I did not make it up. Maybe some Christian made it up when he told me his theology, but I didn't make it up.

if fact if you went to church you would understand that repent means to turn away to stop doing the sin.

In fact, different preachers teach different Christian theology. Just spend time on the internet...you will find many different concept by Christians as to what Jesus said.

when jesus forgave sin... he said you are forgiven, go and sin no more.

That may be what he said...but does that mean someone is forgiven for all past sins and future sins?

Or does it mean something different?


Christians have different ideas. That's why there are so many different Churches, different ideas, different takes on what Jesus said, and what Jesus meant.

in terms of christian teaching repent means to stop doing the sin.

Not according to this site:

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Introduction/repent.htm

Some Christian theology suggest that man's very instinct and nature is to sin, that man was born sinful, and remains sinful by nature.

Accordingly the belief is that nature of man is never changed fully, he will only get a reprieve from the powerlessness not to act upon his own sinful nature if he turns toward Jesus and in his heart repents and admits fully to his sinful nature and expresses his willingness to surrender his will to the will of God and Jesus.

Different concepts abound in Christianity.

 

[jem]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:

Not according to this site:

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Introduction/repent.htm

Some Christian theology suggest that man's very instinct and nature is to sin, that man was born sinful, and remains sinful by nature.

Accordingly the belief is that nature of man is never changed fully, he will only get a reprieve from the powerlessness not to act upon his own sinful nature if he turns toward Jesus and in his heart repents and admits fully to his sinful nature and expresses his willingness to surrender his will to the will of God and Jesus.

Different concepts abound in Christianity. [/B]

1. your quote is not inconconsistent with the defintition I presented.

2. I noticed you made your annswer about being a christian and paying taxes was a jumbled joke.

taxes are not charity.

 

[LORD KAL-EL]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:

You seem to be confusing taxes with acts of charity or helping your neighbor.

Well, since according to most ideas of Christianity, we are all God's children, which makes us all related, then I am not one confused here.

Taxation if required to help all God's children would be a bad thing?

I don't know if you read this yet...but perhaps a Catholic might have a different point of view:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215611

a large portion of taxes go to killing and abortions, and gluttons and sloths.

A large portion of corporate welfare goes to gluttons and sloths, a large tax credit goes to oil companies, farmers being paid not to grow crops, corporate kickbacks, etc. Are you equally outraged?

Abortion is legal, so taxes going to a person who can't afford a legal medical procedure, doesn't seem all that injurious to society at large.

and note... we are still waiting for you show even one preacher who preaches, sin repent sin repent... over and over and over.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Introduction/repent.htm


you made that shit up, you can change the subject all you wish... but you lie when you say Christians teach you can sin repent, sin repent... over and over.

No, I did not make it up. Maybe some Christian made it up when he told me his theology, but I didn't make it up.

if fact if you went to church you would understand that repent means to turn away to stop doing the sin.

In fact, different preachers teach different Christian theology. Just spend time on the internet...you will find many different concept by Christians as to what Jesus said.

when jesus forgave sin... he said you are forgiven, go and sin no more.

That may be what he said...but does that mean someone is forgiven for all past sins and future sins?

Or does it mean something different?


Christians have different ideas. That's why there are so many different Churches, different ideas, different takes on what Jesus said, and what Jesus meant.

in terms of christian teaching repent means to stop doing the sin.

Not according to this site:

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Introduction/repent.htm

Some Christian theology suggest that man's very instinct and nature is to sin, that man was born sinful, and remains sinful by nature.

Accordingly the belief is that nature of man is never changed fully, he will only get a reprieve from the powerlessness not to act upon his own sinful nature if he turns toward Jesus and in his heart repents and admits fully to his sinful nature and expresses his willingness to surrender his will to the will of God and Jesus.

Different concepts abound in Christianity.

I'm sorry I don't give a rats ass about your concepts of Christianity (it should be a moot point since you don't claim to be one ).

Besides I thought we were well past that theocracy stuff anyway.

I mean I may adhere to a particular religion but that does not mean I want it's dogma to be the compulsory law of the land enforced by violence (all govt action is violence or the threat of violence).

 

[jem]

Quote from Free Thinker:

calvinism teaches that.

John Calvin: "once saved, a person is always saved." As soon as one is saved, they are secure in the knowledge that they will attain heaven after death, no matter what they do during the rest of their life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

and in calvinism the elect are chosen by god and do good works.

this is not a sin and repent sin and repent scheme which optional zzz said christians are preaching today.

 

[jem]

zzz your cite confirmed what I was saying

you can't just sin repeat, sin repeat and be forgiven.

trust in God, act on his word and repent is his message.... and intrinsic to the repent part of the message is that you can't keep doing the sin over and over....



http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm...tion/repent.htm


Meaning of Repentance

The words "repent," "repentance," and "repented" are mentioned over 100 times in the Bible. There has been a lot of misunderstanding and confusion over what the word repentance means. When the word "repent" is used in the Word of God in the context of Biblical salvation, it is referring to a truly God-given, Spirit-led change of heart and mind toward God about sin.

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out ..." (Acts 3:19).

The greatest need for any sinner is have his sins blotted out, but a man will never have the pardon of sin while he is in love with his sin. There must be a hatred of sin, a loathing of it, a turning from it. Repentance is a revolution in dealing with our attitude and view towards sin and righteousness. Repentance is not something one does with his hands, but it is an inward attitude of the soul. Sin must become, in the eyes of the sinner, exceedingly sinful.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from jem:

and in calvinism the elect are chosen by god and do good works.

this is not a sin and repent sin and repent scheme which optional zzz said christians are preaching today.

And that's the problem: almost all traditional approaches to Christianity try to explain atonement, forgiveness and redemption in legalistic terms, seeking to define it in terms of conditions and technicalities. But it's like a blanket that's just too small, and no matter which way you pull it, you'll always expose another problematic part:

If salvation was based on "good works", then it would be possible to "work one's way into heaven", so to speak. (At least if you perceive it in legalistic terms.)

If salvation was based on faith, the result is even more fatal, as the minimum requirement wouldn't even involve being loving, but rely solely upon professing the right beliefs - which makes it even more problematic than the "good works"-approach, ethically speaking.

Calvinism eliminates this by stating that it's God's choice, not Man's, thus making salvation unattainable by any effort of our own. All nice and well, until you acknowledge that there are people who are not saved, in spite of being just as deserving as the ones who receive the Spirit. At that point, this theology starts to go down the drain, as it effectively turns God into a demonic entity, a fickle monster who delights in hearing the screams of the tormented - for he would be capable of saving all and yet chooses not to.



"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save.: Thomas Jefferson