catholic iphone app.

Religion can be used as a tool, I agree. It can be used for good, or bad...like any other tool.

But a bad man, can only convince others to follow his bad ways, if they are predisposed already to follow a bad man. If they have rejected extremism to begin with, they are not going to follow an extremist leader.

I agree that most of the greatest atrocities were perpetuated at the behest of fanatics who had fanatical followers.

Religion is not causal though necessarily to fanaticism. As there are loads of examples, some given, of those who practice religion peacefully and without political movements to convert others to their way of thinking.

The enemy is extremist thinking, and one can be deeply religious and not extremist in their thinking.

Buddha taught a path of moderation...but if someone says to be an extremist Buddhist and employ violence to coerce others...who is to blame for that?

Buddha? The religion of Buddhism? Or the nature of extremist thinkers?

You are making false connections in your argument, logical fallacies.


Quote from Gabfly1:

Religion is the tool, because it requires the suspension of reason, which unscrupulous leaders find very useful. The greatest of atrocities were perpetrated by the most fanatical of believers. Would they have become such monsters had they not suspended their reason and, thereby, their humanity?
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I'm kind of siding with Optional on this debate. I don't believe in the Christian view of God, and I see the evil that has been done in the name of religion, and how religion can be used to control the masses.

But it's not so black and white as to say that religion is 'evil'. My parents are devout Catholics, and they are great people. There are many great religious people, even people in the leadership who are trying to do good. I respect that and I don't make fun of religions, or see the religious as someone different from myself. Religion is a source of strength for many people, and I don't discount that.

I haven't read the entire thread so my comments my not fit in real well with your discussion, but....I'm weighing in any way
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:

http://www.centralcal.com/christ9.htm

"The answer is, you can be guilty of all the sin in the world and still be saved."

All you have to do is sin, then repent, sin and then repent, binge and then purge...and you have the get out of jail Jesus card that is preached to this day...just as long as you feel guilty, you can sin as much as you want, and rationalize the sin because you are a sinner.

If this were not the case, then we would not see what we see in America...a "Christian country" where sin is rampant on every level.

Sinning freely, then feeling guilty, is not behavior modification...it is just like an alcoholic who drinks, then feels guilty the next day...then drinks to ease the pain of the guilt.

It is not the "way" of Jesus Christ. SIN NO MORE was/is the directive...
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you are already becoming a more mature christian... this is far more nuanced than your previous positions.

But you are still wrong.
Your logic is flawed.

lets review...

1. Presumably someone who acts on Jesus's promises is saved.
2. Outwardly do you have any idea of how many people in a church are going to be judged worthy of eternal life with God?
3. You have no idea who is going to be saved.

you can't love God and bring him into you life through say communion and keep sinning.

I personally think the reason why there are so many Catholics who do not go to church is because you can't sin an repent over and over and keep returning to communion. You own conscience tells you to eliminate the behavior or stop showing up at the lords supper.

Its why Jesus said many will cry lord lord but few are saved.
 
I'm not a Catholic. I'm not a Christian. I have no opinion on the truth or falsity of Catholicism or Christianity.

My comments are just the repetition of what some of the Christians say, and what they do.

On your review:

1. That is one belief system. Others have said different things. Opinions within the entire real of Christianity vary.
2. Outwardly, I don't know what is going on spiritually for another person, true.
3. I have no idea who if anyone is going to be saved. Maybe there is no "saving" by Jesus. Again, I am just repeating what I have read or heard various Christians claim.

"you can't love God and bring him into you life through say communion and keep sinning."

I doubt this is logically true from what I have heard some Christians say. Some say that a human being can't help but sin, because it is their sinful nature to sin. Nothing changes that, in what they have said, only that Jesus can save them from their own nature when the time comes.

So, is it possible to love God, and bring God into your life though say communion, and keep sinning? According to some Christians, it is certainly possible to love God, bring God into your life, and keep sinning. At least that is the opinion of some Christians. Taking communion and loving God don't make a person perfect, and only the perfected are free from the nature of sin is what has been explained to me. There are different opinions, and I can't argue that any one of those opinions are true or false...just that opinions do differ.

"Its why Jesus said many will cry lord lord but few are saved."

I suppose you could quote chapter and verse, but again, no one really knows what Jesus said...



Quote from jem:

you are already becoming a more mature christian... this is far more nuanced than your previous positions.

But you are still wrong.
Your logic is flawed.

lets review...

1. Presumably someone who acts on Jesus's promises is saved.
2. Outwardly do you have any idea of how many people in a church are going to be judged worthy of eternal life with God?
3. You have no idea who is going to be saved.

you can't love God and bring him into you life through say communion and keep sinning.

I personally think the reason why there are so many Catholics who do not go to church is because you can't sin an repent over and over and keep returning to communion. You own conscience tells you to eliminate the behavior or stop showing up at the lords supper.

Its why Jesus said many will cry lord lord but few are saved.
More...
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:

I'm not a Catholic. I'm not a Christian. I have no opinion on the truth or falsity of Catholicism or Christianity.

My comments are just the repetition of what some of the Christians say, and what they do.

On your review:

1. That is one belief system. Others have said different things. Opinions within the entire real of Christianity vary.
2. Outwardly, I don't know what is going on spiritually for another person, true.
3. I have no idea who if anyone is going to be saved. Maybe there is no "saving" by Jesus. Again, I am just repeating what I have read or heard various Christians claim.

"you can't love God and bring him into you life through say communion and keep sinning."

I doubt this is logically true from what I have heard some Christians say. Some say that a human being can't help but sin, because it is their sinful nature to sin. Nothing changes that, in what they have said, only that Jesus can save them from their own nature when the time comes.

So, is it possible to love God, and bring God into your life though say communion, and keep sinning? According to some Christians, it is certainly possible to love God, bring God into your life, and keep sinning. At least that is the opinion of some Christians. Taking communion and loving God don't make a person perfect, and only the perfected are free from the nature of sin is what has been explained to me. There are different opinions, and I can't argue that any one of those opinions are true or false...just that opinions do differ.

"Its why Jesus said many will cry lord lord but few are saved."

I suppose you could quote chapter and verse, but again, no one really knows what Jesus said...
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exactly... so you have no idea who is really a christian or what the preachers are teaching.

so perhaps you should dump your b.s. rhetoric.

sin repeat, sin repeat is a figment of your imagination and not a christian message.
 
...and you have an idea who is really a Christian?

How is that?

"sin repeat, sin repeat is a figment of your imagination and not a christian message"

No, it is not a figment of my imagination. I have heard it, and seen it in practice. These people claim to be real Christians, are you in a position to say they are not real Christians? Is it a Christian message...well...for some Christians it appears to be.

When was the last time you saw a major public figure, a self proclaimed Christian, get caught in a big sin...and say, "Well, I'm going to hell for that."

...or "Well, I'm going to have to do some serious penance for that, and I can only pray that Jesus will forgive me, and Jesus might not."

...or "Well, I'm going to have to spend some time in purgatory for that."

Sin, repeat, sin, repeat is exactly what many Christians do...as they believe Jesus has already saved them...at least that's what they tell me.

Quote from jem:

exactly... so you have no idea who is really a christian or what the preachers are teaching.

so perhaps you should dump your b.s. rhetoric.

sin repeat, sin repeat is a figment of your imagination and not a christian message.
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Quote from OPTIONAL777:

...and you have an idea who is really a Christian?

How is that?

"sin repeat, sin repeat is a figment of your imagination and not a christian message"

No, it is not a figment of my imagination. I have heard it, and seen it in practice. These people claim to be real Christians, are you in a position to say they are not real Christians? Is it a Christian message...well...for some Christians it appears to be.

When was the last time you saw a major public figure, a self proclaimed Christian, get caught in a big sin...and say, "Well, I'm going to hell for that."

...or "Well, I'm going to have to do some serious penance for that, and I can only pray that Jesus will forgive me, and Jesus might not."

...or "Well, I'm going to have to spend some time in purgatory for that."

Sin, repeat, sin, repeat is exactly what many Christians do...as they believe Jesus has already saved them...at least that's what they tell me.
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those "christians" must not be going to church.


All fundamentalist church goers have had to deal with that born again once saved always saved and then back sliding.

The message you are speaking of was big in the 80s. But now all churches have had to deal with those who fell away from the church and perhaps even denounce it even though they were once "born again" .

(free thinker might be an example)




Some preachers got around it by saying a backslider was never really saved but you do not even hear that anymore...

you are 20 or 30 years behind the fundamentalist teachings.
 
"those "christians" must not be going to church."

They say they go to church...they "must not be going to your church, where they preach your take on Christianity."

"All fundamentalist church goers have had to deal with that born again once saved always saved and then back sliding."

What forced them, "all fundamentalist church goers" to deal with once saved always saved and then back sliding?

What about non fundamentalist church goers?

They don't count as Christians?

"The message you are speaking of was big in the 80s. But now all churches have had to deal with those who fell away from the church and perhaps even denounce it even though they were once "born again."

All churches?

Funny logical fallacy there...

"Some preachers got around it by saying a backslider was never really saved but you do not even hear that anymore...

you are 20 or 30 years behind the fundamentalist teachings."[b/]

20 or 30 years behind the "fundamentalist teachings?"

Now that is truly funny...but are you suggesting that only the "fundamentalist teachings" of today are the only correct version of Christianity to be followed?

Why is it that so many different sects of Christianity use the same Bible, yet have so many different views of what Christ said?

Why would any particular sect of Christianity think that they "got it right" but other sects "got it wrong."



Quote from jem:

those "christians" must not be going to church.


All fundamentalist church goers have had to deal with that born again once saved always saved and then back sliding.

The message you are speaking of was big in the 80s. But now all churches have had to deal with those who fell away from the church and perhaps even denounce it even though they were once "born again" .

(free thinker might be an example)




Some preachers got around it by saying a backslider was never really saved but you do not even hear that anymore...

you are 20 or 30 years behind the fundamentalist teachings.
More...
 
Quote from jem:

those "christians" must not be going to church.


All fundamentalist church goers have had to deal with that born again once saved always saved and then back sliding.

The message you are speaking of was big in the 80s. But now all churches have had to deal with those who fell away from the church and perhaps even denounce it even though they were once "born again" .

(free thinker might be an example)




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Atheism is not a conscious act of turning away from all gods. It is simply the final destination for those who think. You will be pleased to discover that the sky does not fall down on your head. If you still want to pray, you can; the success rate of your prayers is unlikely to change. (Guy P. Harrison)
 
"It is simply the final destination for those who think."

Do you realize how totalitarian and extremist that sounds? Probably sounds much like the theists who preached to you about God when you were younger.

Once a true believer, always a true believer...I guess.

Quote from Free Thinker:

Atheism is not a conscious act of turning away from all gods. It is simply the final destination for those who think. You will be pleased to discover that the sky does not fall down on your head. If you still want to pray, you can; the success rate of your prayers is unlikely to change. (Guy P. Harrison)
More...
 
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