BREXIT

Look conduit, I don't want to be rude. We've all jumped to conclusions in the past about certain events based on what we felt at that time was a good grasp of the situation. If we take trading as an example, it takes years to master, but there are many occasions during that journey where we think, "I've got it", only to have egg on our faces later on. It's is similar phenomenon when we establish strong views about the politics of another country based on some surface understanding due to previous visits, dealings or some news coverage.

Honestly, I think you waded into UK politics with some level of understanding based on your own personal experiences, but without an in depth knowledge of the intricacies and subtleties. You have some interesting insights, but there is a lot of unnecessary inflammatory rhetoric in your posts, and some of it is just plain misleading. I don't feel you're at the stage where you are open minded to listen to different points of view. Fair enough, we've all been there at certain times in our life, only to realise later on that we made an error of judgement. I don't necessary expect you to take on board my comments at the moment, but maybe in time you will reflect back in a different light.

Don't forget that the UK is still part of the European family. The UK is always part of Europe, but it is also an island, and geography has huge implications for a region's relationship with its neighbours. There are racists everywhere, but for most of the British Leave voters that I know, it is about sovereignty and issues concerning the EU institution and its direction, the UK's ability to prevent more laws that harm its own interests. Uncontrolled immigration might be one such issue, but it is really only part of the jigsaw puzzle. The UK government is certainly not against immigration, which I think you've now accepted has always been part of the UK's fabric. And nobody wants the EU to fail, hopefully the situation can better for EU now that the UK has decided to leave. Difficult times ahead, but not insurmountable obstacles.

I hope this thread gets back on track, but I will be making my own exit from the thread now and watching from the sidelines. Apologies for any offense taken from my posts, and I am willing to give you a fresh start too.
 
what part of the European family are you? You just voted out. But still want half in, half out, one leg in one leg out. Its like a guy sleeping with whores and other gals before the divorce is signed.

By the way the thread is perfectly on track. We heard the UK side and I appreciated the differing takes. But the thread also has a right to be represented by those who hold a pro Europe view. I presented mine. I don't hate you nor any of your folks. But you should know that patience among many Europeans towards the UK has also run out. Same on both ends. Using Art.50 as a bargaining chip will not go unpunished that I am absolutely certain of.

Let's agree to disagree on most of the issues we exchanged thoughts about. No harm done.

benwm said:
Look conduit, I don't want to be rude. We've all jumped to conclusions in the past about certain events based on what we felt at that time was a good grasp of the situation. If we take trading as an example, it takes years to master, but there are many occasions during that journey where we think, "I've got it", only to have egg on our faces later on. It's is similar phenomenon when we establish strong views about the politics of another country based on some surface understanding due to previous visits, dealings or some news coverage.

Honestly, I think you waded into UK politics with some level of understanding based on your own personal experiences, but without an in depth knowledge of the intricacies and subtleties. You have some interesting insights, but there is a lot of unnecessary inflammatory rhetoric in your posts, and some of it is just plain misleading. I don't feel you're at the stage where you are open minded to listen to different points of view. Fair enough, we've all been there at certain times in our life, only to realise later on that we made an error of judgement. I don't necessary expect you to take on board my comments at the moment, but maybe in time you will reflect back in a different light.

Don't forget that the UK is still part of the European family. The UK is always part of Europe, but it is also an island, and geography has huge implications for a region's relationship with its neighbours. There are racists everywhere, but for most of the British Leave voters that I know, it is about sovereignty and issues concerning the EU institution and its direction, the UK's ability to prevent more laws that harm its own interests. Uncontrolled immigration might be one such issue, but it is really only part of the jigsaw puzzle. The UK government is certainly not against immigration, which I think you've now accepted has always been part of the UK's fabric. And nobody wants the EU to fail, hopefully the situation can better for EU now that the UK has decided to leave. Difficult times ahead, but not insurmountable obstacles.

I hope this thread gets back on track, but I will be making my own exit from the thread now and watching from the sidelines. Apologies for any offense taken from my posts, and I am willing to give you a fresh start too.
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conduit said:
"....British premier David Cameron, who told the House of Commons on Monday that London would not be starting formal exit procedures “at this stage”, adding: “Before we do that we need to determine the kind of relationship we want with the EU. And that is rightly something for the next prime minister and their cabinet to decide.” Source: FT

It gets odder by the hour. So that the rest of us understands correctly, the UK held a referendum to exit the European Union but now says it has to take time to understand what relationship it wants with the EU. Wasn't the vote all about ending the relationship with the EU? It's like the US presidential candidates getting into the final phase, then elections are held, one candidate gets elected and then he/she declares that he/she needs more time because he/she does not really know what relationship he/she wants with the United States.

I get more and more the impression that Article 50 is planned to be used as bargaining chip. That is the real motivation and not that British policy makers do not know what relationship they want with the EU. They allowed the people to choose what relationship they want and they decided. At the very least both sides boldly lied about the referendum being binding while it was never binding in the first place. It looks increasingly to me that the UK is at odds with itself not with Europe. It has issues it needs to work out domestically, not issues with Europe. Immigration has never been an issue as they UK was never forced to take a single person to immigrate into the UK, neither as regular immigrant or refugee. There is chaos in the UK and politicians successfully convinced the broad public that it is the EU's fault. That is what is really going on.

If the British really think they can now hold the EU hostage and try to bargain I believe they will lose the last partners in Europe that were actually supportive of the UK and its constant bargaining for exemptions, exceptions, and other special treatments. So far Europeans have been very patient with the UK, and even Europe cannot force the UK when to invoke Art.50, patience is running thin. Nobody is gonna wait until October without writing off the UK completely. Maybe the British should already start to imagine to wait for 2-3 hours at European airports in queue along with the Chinese and other non Europeans to have their immigration and passports processed just to vacation in Spain and Co. Because that is what is gonna happen if the UK believes it can play with the rest of Central Europe.

The arguments at least so far that the UK brings forth in defense of waiting and considering longer are ridiculous and an outright lie or on the other hand a testimony to total and 100% cluelessness of what they are doing in the first place. If the British think the Italians, Germans, French are stupid then I believe they take a huge gamble and bet. If the UK wants verbal, emotional war and terror then bring it on. If they want outright shunning of British anywhere else in Europe then bring it on. They can vacation at Brighton beach and on Shell oil platforms while the rest of Europe enjoys beaches free of drunk Brits and crazy hooligans. Europe's patience has been tested and it is losing patience fast. I am just an average guy, trust me, there are other people in Europe that take a much more aggressive and assertive stance towards the UK. Don't expect any more apologetic and repentant attitudes from the new generation of Germans, for example. They have paid for the transgressions of their forefathers. If you piss in their backyard then they will bring out the German shepherd and dobermans faster than the Brits can launch a single nuke. I am willing to bet that when it becomes clear that the UK is trying to push a wedge in between European nations then the UK can start looking for new trading partners. Maybe enough Pakistanis and Indians are willing to buy British products. And the problem of open borders will be solved itself because the borders for British towards Europe will be closed for good.
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You're really barking up the wrong tree here, mon ami...
 
I am not barking up your tree in case you felt addressed. I respect you and your right to your opinion even though I strongly disagree with it. What I do not respect is extortion. Such attempt will come at a heavy price.

Martinghoul said:
You're really barking up the wrong tree here, mon ami...
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conduit said:
I am not barking up your tree in case you felt addressed. I respect you and your right to your opinion even though I strongly disagree with it. What I do not respect is extortion. Such attempt will come at a heavy price.
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This mess wasn't created in a few days, nor will it be fixed in a few days. Clearly, you don't like it and your views reflect disdain for the decision.

Of course decisions haven't been made. Had they been made, you would criticize that as well. The people of the UK have spoken. Now it's time to take a step back and bring the right people to the fore and go about the lengthy process of making proper decisions in due course. No doubt you will blather on about whatever decisions are made or not made, but rest assured much work is being done behind the scenes to make decisions that are in the best interest of the UK and bring people together.

Five years from now, no one will discuss this and the UK will be quite prosperous.
 
I accepted the decision made in the UK. What everyone is annoyed and at the same time amused about is that on one hand the British people and Europeans by UK's prime minister were told that the referendum is binding. Now it is not binding anymore. Then no preparations have been made whatsoever on UK's side. It is the responsibility of the UK as still EU member to show a clear path what and when things will happen.

Every additional day will add to the number Europeans who will stamp Brits as extortionate people and it is pretty clear at this point that this can only badly backfire. Should the slightest hint come about that the timing of invoking article 50 is used as bargaining chip then I am pretty certain that it won't be pretty next time Brits set foot on Continental Europe. It's a choice that is made. Europeans are not stupid in case anyone is looking to try to play games. If 200 Russians can beat the shit out of 2000 English hooligans in Marseille then consider that the beginning of the end of any sort of friendship

ktm said:
This mess wasn't created in a few days, nor will it be fixed in a few days. Clearly, you don't like it and your views reflect disdain for the decision.

Of course decisions haven't been made. Had they been made, you would criticize that as well. The people of the UK have spoken. Now it's time to take a step back and bring the right people to the fore and go about the lengthy process of making proper decisions in due course. No doubt you will blather on about whatever decisions are made or not made, but rest assured much work is being done behind the scenes to make decisions that are in the best interest of the UK and bring people together.

Five years from now, no one will discuss this and the UK will be quite prosperous.
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The EU is pretty much finished. Deal with it. What really amuses me is that Scotland wants to break from the UK and join the EU.
 
conduit said:
If you piss in their backyard then they will bring out the German shepherd and dobermans faster than the Brits can launch a single nuke. I am willing to bet that when it becomes clear that the UK is trying to push a wedge in between European nations then the UK can start looking for new trading partners. Maybe enough Pakistanis and Indians are willing to buy British products. And the problem of open borders will be solved itself because the borders for British towards Europe will be closed for good.
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Wow. You are comparing our nuclear capability with um, German shepherd dogs...

I think you are barking* (no pun intended), mate.

* translation for non UK people, this means you are crazy
 
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