BREXIT

[Martinghoul]

For the record, prejudice against the Germans related to the events of WWII had nothing to do with my vote. I can state the same about the other people who I have had conversations with about the issue, regardless of their vote.

 

[benwm]

From my father's point of view ALL Germans were genetically inhuman monsters

It's really not about this! I suppose you have to laugh at all of the different interpretations. Nobody takes the Daily Mail rag too seriously.

Britain is stalling on triggering Article 50 because as soon as it does so it is in a weaker negotiating position with the EU. Cameron/Boris will wait weeks, if not months, before doing this. It's a business decision, that's all, nothing to do with Auschwitz or inhuman monsters. The EU stands to lose a lot having the 2nd largest economy leave the EU. Once Juncker has moved out of the way, events will progress quickly and a deal will be reached. But Britain will only move once there is broad agreement with Merkel and other key leaders on the main issues.

 

[conduit]

- we are talking about Europe not Iraq

- I said immigration is an issue that was cited by many of the British who voted for an exit. They cited the issue of letting in more refugees and immigration from Eastern European countries where such immigrants were claimed to take away jobs in the UK.

- people in Sunderland have a better visceral understanding of what the vote means? Yes that is for sure, though the only slight issue is that they only understand the benefits of the exit not the cost of it. I dont dismiss Sunderland votes. I argued that they may understand the benefits but have a difficult time to comprehend the cost because the cost was never explained to them by the leave camp. I claimed, and I think there is very valid reason to believe so, that the average Londoner is way better informed of both sides of the coin. It makes no difference to the outcome of the vote, but it does explain how the vote came about. It explains that the misinformation thrown around did very much impact the outcome. So, lies and deception pretty much decided the outcome. And suddenly Farage is nowhere to be seen and Boris pretends he does not understand anything. Either he is honest and never had a clue, from start to end, or he plays dumb now in having mislead those that wanted to hear of exit benefits but were happy to be spared the message of the cost that needs to be incurred.

But, given precedent of, among others, Iraq, Europe can never be sure of the stance of the individual member states anyway, Brexit or no Brexit. In fact, this fundamental principle is enshrined in the Lisbon Treaty, which, among other things, specifically mentions NATO commitments as senior to CSDP. So, again, no additional uncertainty has been created in this area by Brexit, contrary to your assertion.

Yes, I have issues with NATO, which I have previously mentioned in another thread here.

Hold on, I thought you said the vote was mostly about immigration? Unless we're talking about waves of German immigration into the UK, I am confused why Auschwitz and prejudices against the Germans come into this.

Finally, again, the age breakdown is well-known, but so are the responses in the exit polls where the voters give their rationale for voting. As to the educational and knowledge levels in Sunderland vs London, yes, that's likely, but then so are the issues people face in Sunderland. Maybe they have a better visceral understanding of what the vote means? What basis do you have to dismiss their votes as somehow less valid than those cast by the Londoners?

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[conduit]

I never joked about Auschwitz, but I do not take responsibility, I am not responsible, I did not even live in those times. And you just perfectly proved my point. Until today there is a deep rooted dislike and suspicion towards Germans in most of the British. Can I fault them for that? Probably not the ones who went to war. And probably not any of the decedents that were brainwashed or are otherwise gullible. But I fault the educated who believe historical war aggression is a gene. Luckily there are not too many educated who dislike or hate others purely based on race.

Well... I cannot be part of such a conversation without making a statement. First read this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-50-Germans-cold-blood-reveals-new-book.html

The British, now the mostly dead grandfathers of the current younger population, were a lot more involved in all this than Americans were. Still... I can tell you that my father came home from the war and was never the same (so my mother told me). From my father's point of view ALL Germans were genetically inhuman monsters and he used to say that we should have taken the opportunity at the end of the war to completely erase the German race. "kill them all" was the kindest thing he could say about Germans until his dying day.

It would have killed him to see a renewed Germany as we have it today. Don't make jokes about Auschwitz... it was real and there is a genetic defect in a race that could commit such crimes.

 

[benwm]

I dont dismiss Sunderland votes. I argued that they may understand the benefits but have a difficult time to comprehend the cost because the cost was never explained to them by the leave camp. I claimed, and I think there is very valid reason to believe so, that the average Londoner is way better informed of both sides of the coin.

There is no cost to leaving the EU for most Leave voters living in Sunderland...if they cannot find a decent job, cannot afford a house, they don't give a shit about the average Londoner. But let's be clear, it's not just people living in Sunderland who voted out. Essentially every region in England and Wales outside of London voted to leave. And Wales is a net beneficiary of EU funding, which discredits your earlier theory about all countries receiving EU funds not wanting to leave.

I hope the EU without the UK doesn't fall apart, but with certain entrenched attitudes it's only a matter of time before other members demand a referendum. In part, that explains the emotional reaction of yourself and fellow brainwashed Europhiles. You want to fool yourself that it's all about immigration. It isn't. Subconsciously you know the end is near, but you seem paralyzed by your own biases, unable to adapt to the realities of flawed EU. Unless the EU is able to look within itself and face up to its own weaknesses, rather than blaming UK Leave voters, the institution will die a slow but painful death.

 

[Martinghoul]

- we are talking about Europe not Iraq

Yes, I was talking about Europe, not Iraq, indeed.

- I said immigration is an issue that was cited by many of the British who voted for an exit. They cited the issue of letting in more refugees and immigration from Eastern European countries where such immigrants were claimed to take away jobs in the UK.

Yes, I know. But, firstly, this was not the #1 issue cited. Secondly, if we're talking about the issue of immigration, what's the connection to anti-German prejudice that you have brought up?

- people in Sunderland have a better visceral understanding of what the vote means? Yes that is for sure, though the only slight issue is that they only understand the benefits of the exit not the cost of it. I dont dismiss Sunderland votes. I argued that they may understand the benefits but have a difficult time to comprehend the cost because the cost was never explained to them by the leave camp. I claimed, and I think there is very valid reason to believe so, that the average Londoner is way better informed of both sides of the coin. It makes no difference to the outcome of the vote, but it does explain how the vote came about. It explains that the misinformation thrown around did very much impact the outcome. So, lies and deception pretty much decided the outcome. And suddenly Farage is nowhere to be seen and Boris pretends he does not understand anything. Either he is honest and never had a clue, from start to end, or he plays dumb now in having mislead those that wanted to hear of exit benefits but were happy to be spared the message of the cost that needs to be incurred.

Again, like I mentioned, lies, deception and misinformation were thrown around by both sides, so I will have to disagree with your assertion that they decided the outcome. As to fears about the lack of leadership, I agree, there are genuine concerns.

 

[eurusdzn]

surf?

Not a chance is it Surf.
Volpunter?

 

[benwm]

Not a chance is it Surf.
Volpunter?

Yeah, I checked with the Mods. It's not Surf. I was wrong.

 

[Martinghoul]

I never joked about Auschwitz, but I do not take responsibility, I am not responsible, I did not even live in those times. And you just perfectly proved my point. Until today there is a deep rooted dislike and suspicion towards Germans in most of the British. Can I fault them for that? Probably not the ones who went to war. And probably not any of the decedents that were brainwashed or are otherwise gullible. But I fault the educated who believe historical war aggression is a gene. Luckily there are not too many educated who dislike or hate others purely based on race.

Sorry, how does this article in the Daily Mail posted by oldnemesis, who is American (if I am not mistaken), prove that there is dislike and suspicion towards the Germans in most of the British?

 

[conduit]

sorry if I gave the impression that I believe events around WWII influenced your vote. That was not my intent, my apologies if I miscommunicated.

For the record, prejudice against the Germans related to the events of WWII had nothing to do with my vote. I can state the same about the other people who I have had conversations with about the issue, regardless of their vote.