Well, allow me to disagree with you on this here... I don't want to engage in a battle of itemized lists here, so let's just leave it at that.
BREXIT
- Thread starter oldnemesis
- Start date
Well, let's just agree to disagree on this, shall we? Given that it's likely to be a "glass half-full/glass half-empty" discussion, I don't think a battle of itemized lists is going to get us anywhere.
"Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) formerly known as the European Security and Defence Policy (ESDP).The ESDP was the successor of the European Security and Defence Identity under NATO, but differs in that it falls under the jurisdiction of the European Union itself, including countries with no ties to NATO. European security policy has followed several different paths during the 1990s, developing simultaneously within the Western European Union, NATO and the European Union itself."
While NATO and CSDP work very closely together and are in fact considered "separable, but not separate" by intelligence strategists, there is a difference when it comes to defend European nations. One can make a move without American agreement or support, the other cannot.
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What is so uncertain about this? Why don't we walk around in the UK and ask people what they think? There would be a broad outcry if you asked them to send their sons to defend Latvia or Estonia tomorrow, few days after the Brexit referendum.
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Just because "as you said" does not make it at all irrelevant what keeps the UK from moving ahead now. That it is highly relevant was seen in the expression of grave worry by most European leaders, IMF's Lagarde, and the US administration and its whole security and intelligence apparatus.
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So, have you checked who voted and what their rationals were? The young who are the most productive in UK society have with huge majority voted for a remaining in the EU. Retirees and disgruntled factory and wharf workers opted to exit. And anyone who claims the remain camp misrepresented more than the exit camp seems to have been blind to reality. Of course did the exit camp go on a huge fishing trip for the gullible and those who already harbor hatred and and anger and hooked them with foul bait. Those who carry the biggest burden for the next 50 years were overruled by a bunch of war veterans who still celebrate each and every year their victory over the Germans and by a bunch of those who feel underprivileged (have you checked why Sunderland voted so strongly for exit, did you check what kind of factories are there? Do you understand why those factory workers harbor anti German and anti European sentiment?)
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The UK was the most sovereign country in all of Europe. Please tell me where the UK felt bound or limited if not immigration? Goodness, seriously, can we keep this discussion on an honest level? Why does even one of the cleverest guys on this whole site now gets sucked into dramatizing and half-truth reasoning like a rabbit gets sucked into the vacuum cleaner? Is it that you hated to be told which light bulbs to use?
While NATO and CSDP work very closely together and are in fact considered "separable, but not separate" by intelligence strategists, there is a difference when it comes to defend European nations. One can make a move without American agreement or support, the other cannot.
-------------------------
What is so uncertain about this? Why don't we walk around in the UK and ask people what they think? There would be a broad outcry if you asked them to send their sons to defend Latvia or Estonia tomorrow, few days after the Brexit referendum.
--------------------------
Just because "as you said" does not make it at all irrelevant what keeps the UK from moving ahead now. That it is highly relevant was seen in the expression of grave worry by most European leaders, IMF's Lagarde, and the US administration and its whole security and intelligence apparatus.
--------------------------
So, have you checked who voted and what their rationals were? The young who are the most productive in UK society have with huge majority voted for a remaining in the EU. Retirees and disgruntled factory and wharf workers opted to exit. And anyone who claims the remain camp misrepresented more than the exit camp seems to have been blind to reality. Of course did the exit camp go on a huge fishing trip for the gullible and those who already harbor hatred and and anger and hooked them with foul bait. Those who carry the biggest burden for the next 50 years were overruled by a bunch of war veterans who still celebrate each and every year their victory over the Germans and by a bunch of those who feel underprivileged (have you checked why Sunderland voted so strongly for exit, did you check what kind of factories are there? Do you understand why those factory workers harbor anti German and anti European sentiment?)
----------------------------
The UK was the most sovereign country in all of Europe. Please tell me where the UK felt bound or limited if not immigration? Goodness, seriously, can we keep this discussion on an honest level? Why does even one of the cleverest guys on this whole site now gets sucked into dramatizing and half-truth reasoning like a rabbit gets sucked into the vacuum cleaner? Is it that you hated to be told which light bulbs to use?
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I agree with this part of what you wrote. This was probably always the intention on much of the Leave side. Leave the EU, restore some sovereignty, keep the bits that the UK wants to keep such as access to EU market like Switzerland and Norway, and get rid of the unnecessary bits that the UK doesn't want to keep. They'll reach some agreement about the migration issue because it's in everyone's interests. I expect the UK might end up with some miniscule and temporary tariffs that will have very little impact on trade. The bottom line is that Germany sells an awful lot of cars to the UK.
Events will take a little time to resolve because egos are involved and lots of people with egg on their face.
I think you might be underestimating the formidable intellect of Boris Johnson, and many others have done the same. Cameron never entered into a pre-referendum debate with Johnson because he knew he would have been beaten in such a debate. That's one of the reasons Cameron, the Remain side and much of the mainstream media were so keen to focus instead on Farage, who was not even part of the official Leave campaign.
more slippery than a snake 
So whats the relationship now? Individuals should take responsibilities and not hesitate but countries don't have to?
So whats the relationship now? Individuals should take responsibilities and not hesitate but countries don't have to?
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Yes, all these concerns that you describe are legitimate and worrisome. I am aware of all these issues.Emotions are running high everywhere. Many people in positions of power are behaving like children.
I don't see any point in grinding the rumour mill so I will comment on what I know to be fact, based on conversations I've had with those who ride the Westminster merry-go-round.
The Brexit camp have no plan. None. This was known in political circles long before the vote. They never expected to win. Heading the Leave campaign in this referendum was a profile raising execise for Boris; it was supposed to introduce him to the general population outside London, garner backing from grassroot euroskeptic Tories, and prepare him to challenge for the Tory leadership just prior to the 2020 election.
Did anyone wonder why he didn't appear on TV until 11am on Friday morning? 11am! The country was crying out for him to appear and fill the void left after Cameron resigned, and it took him until 11am. This probably doesn't mean much to those who don't know how Westminster works, but that void was a political eternity and caused panic. The reason? It made it absolutely plain that he didn't have a game plan.
Boris is actually my MP and I spoke with him prior to the 2015 election. I also met him a few times whilst he was mayor of London. You want to know the truth? Boris never wanted to leave the EU. It was well known in Tory circles that Boris was pro EU, right up until he saw an opportunity to further his career by leading the Leave campaign. When Cameron said last month that Boris had 'never been a leaver' he wasn't lying. Those guys have known each other for decades since they were at Oxford University together. British readers will be familiar with this picture from 1987, but perhaps others aren't aware of just how close these two men used to be.
Not sure if this video will be viewable outside the UK but, knowing this, listen to Boris' speech from Friday. You see there a man who never expected to be in this position shitting proverbial bricks.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnsons-brexit-speech-full-8272948
He's a man whose only front bench experience was short stints as Shadow Minister for the Arts and Shadow Minister for Higher Education. These are very minor roles. He has no real experience on the international stage (apart from PR stunts as London mayor). And he is now in a position where he will be expected to handle the biggest political trauma on the European continent in decades. He is a man out of his depth who knows he must start to unwind Britain's position.
Look at the language he used in his column in the Telegraph yesterday:
- “still have access to the single market”
- “I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be.”
- “EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU."
- “British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market."
Read between the lines in what Boris is saying. He's very likely to be the next Prime Minister and he's preparing the nation already for the fact that Britain's withdrawal from the EU will be in name only. We will exit, but most the existing structures will remain in place.
...too many people in positions power with too much to lose to let this vote derail everything...
Not at all. I've met him and he is an extremely intelligent and very charismatic person. However, as such, he is smart enough to know when he is out of his depth. In a few years' time he would have been ready for this, but not now. That's why there is such a strong move already underway in the Conservative party to prevent Boris getting the top job.
Farage was a side show. He will be swept aside now he has no purpose.
Correct... Countries whose governments are in transition, especially. If only because they need to find and sort out the people who will be responsible for dealing with all the hard work that will need to be done in the aftermath of the decision. Individuals, however, who are responsible for particular outcomes shouldn't hesitate to resign, just like David Cameron did.more slippery than a snake
So whats the relationship now? Individuals should take responsibilities and not hesitate but countries should don't have to?
Yep. The big game in town now is how to stage this so that Britain can 'leave' the EU without really leaving.
In the meantime, this volatility is manna from heaven.
I shall leave you now gents as I've got an appointment, but I shall catch up on your discussions tonight.
then why even engaging in an exchange if each time items are "inconvenient" to us we just ignore them and move on...kind of defeats the whole point of human beings conversing...