attack religion without fear

[Free Thinker]

Quote from john dough:

The only path to God is through faith. All other paths are a dead end. [/B]

this it totally true but a reasonably intelligent educated person living in this day and age should consider this:

Beliefs should be a search for truth and understanding, not denying reality so you can have faith in a compendium of books written by unknown authors over hundreds and hundreds of years complied much later by other fallible men, as 100% literally correct. That is a faith that is truly blind
The very concept of faith is an insult to human intelligence. If you take something on faith, you are in effect saying, "I don't need evidence, facts, or logic. Evidence is worthless, facts are for ninnies, logic is nonsense. I'll believe whatever I want even if reality overwhelmingly shows that it's just not true."

 

[Option Trader]

Quote from john dough:

First you attempt to prove your faith without resort to science, and then when I demonstrate that your position can be defeated without resort to science, you jump back to science as a means of proving your position.

Make up your mind about how you wish to support your beliefs, because belief is all that you or anyone else will ever have to support your faith in an all powerful creator. There is nothing in any of the events that you describe that could not be done by a sufficiently intelligent natural being, despite your "belief" to the contrary.

An alien capable of faster-than-light interstellar travel could easily have the technology to fool the sensory perceptions of millions of people simultaneously. Hell, any good hypnotist entertainer can convince an entire audience that it's raining in the theatre. Magicians have been performing the feats that you describe as divine for centuries -- there's nothing supernatural about any of it.

Unlike most of those who are arguing against God here, I do not dismiss His existence. He may exist and He may not, but NO ONE can prove it either way, no matter how convincing they may believe their argument, because the quintessence of what makes God all powerful, is that He cannot be measured by any naturalistic methodology.

So, no matter what the Jews may have experienced when God purportedly handed down the Torah, that experience would be unverifiable as being a divine event, even if every single person who experienced it were still alive to testify to it right this instant.

The only path to God is through faith. All other paths are a dead end.

1. Regarding the earlier stuff, we each made our points.
2. According to this standard of proof, nobody knows ANYTHING. For example:

Prove to me what you/people see and how you process & remember the info are not two different things.

Prove to me everyone who has a tongue now had a tongue two seconds ago.

Prove to me that the atoms we see under a microscope are for real.

 

[Option Trader]

Quote from vhehn:

this it totally true but a reasonably intelligent educated person living in this day and age should consider this:

Beliefs should be a search for truth and understanding, not denying reality so you can have faith in a compendium of books written by unknown authors over hundreds and hundreds of years complied much later by other fallible men, as 100% literally correct. That is a faith that is truly blind
The very concept of faith is an insult to human intelligence. If you take something on faith, you are in effect saying, "I don't need evidence, facts, or logic. Evidence is worthless, facts are for ninnies, logic is nonsense. I'll believe whatever I want even if reality overwhelmingly shows that it's just not true."

Apologies, but people's bias is to not believe, not to yes believe.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from Option Trader:

Apologies, but people's bias is to not believe, not to yes believe.

thats just not true in america. most people believe what their parents believe and are indoctrinated from birth.
even i was brought up a baptist and it took 50 years to learn the truth of religion.

 

[john dough]

Quote from Option Trader:

1. Regarding the earlier stuff, we each made our points.
2. According to this standard of proof, nobody knows ANYTHING. For example:

Prove to me what you/people see and how you process & remember the info are not two different things.

Prove to me everyone who has a tongue now had a tongue two seconds ago.

Prove to me that the atoms we see under a microscope are for real.

You've just made my point: with respect to the existence of God, "nobody 'knows' anything."

Science and natural perception can only prove that which is natural. God is supernatural, thus He is unprovable via any science or perception.

Knowledge of God is only available via personal faith. One believes because one believes, because that is the only experence available to us mere mortals.

God could make the Jews' experiences at Mt. Siani true and simultaneously make the experience of a dozen other religious groups who may have been their at the same time also true, even though all of those respective truths would be contradictory if measured by scientific methods.

God is not subject to the laws of this universe, thus there is no method by which we who are so subject, can understand God, except through our faith, because faith does not require proof.

 

[seneca_roman]

Quote from jem:

cmon without even looking it up you know that galatians quote in the new testament is not contradicting the old.

Now your first contradiction seems to require context.

did he see the face of God in a vision or a dream, -- was it meant literally.

if you are going to prove the bible wrong present both sides of the argument and your reasoned conclusion.

It is when taken literally as most fundies claim you should read the bible, else why do they believe the universe and all animals and people etc were created in 6 days about 6600 years ago.

Seneca

another inspirational quote:

From Matthew 2:13-14(King James Version)

13Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him."

14And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt

15and remained there until the death of Herod.


From Luke 2:

16And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.

17And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.

18And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds.

19But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.

20And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them.

21And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

22And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;


No trip to Egypt in this version

 

[john dough]

Quote from vhehn:

this it totally true but a reasonably intelligent educated person living in this day and age should consider this:

Beliefs should be a search for truth and understanding, not denying reality so you can have faith in a compendium of books written by unknown authors over hundreds and hundreds of years complied much later by other fallible men, as 100% literally correct. That is a faith that is truly blind
The very concept of faith is an insult to human intelligence. If you take something on faith, you are in effect saying, "I don't need evidence, facts, or logic. Evidence is worthless, facts are for ninnies, logic is nonsense. I'll believe whatever I want even if reality overwhelmingly shows that it's just not true."

I am agnostic. I take no position on the existence of God. I try to do good works and live a reasonable life. While living my life, I accept evidence based on its being provable via natural means.

I'll take my chances on whether or not God approves of my behavior and/or whether God exists. If God turns out to be real and refuses to grant me grace based on His divine judgment, then so be it. If God turns out to be imaginary, then it won't matter.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from john dough:

I am agnostic. I take no position on the existence of God. I try to do good works and live a reasonable life. While living my life, I accept evidence based on its being provable via natural means.

I'll take my chances on whether or not God approves of my behavior and/or whether God exists. If God turns out to be real and refuses to grant me grace based on His divine judgment, then so be it. If God turns out to be imaginary, then it won't matter.

i have a similar view. if god exists and i stand before him some day i will ask him why he refused to provide evidence to man that he existed. i will explain that i would have believed had he provided evidence. if he cant show compassion and still wants to burn me after i explain the circumstances he isn't worthy of worship.

 

[seneca_roman]

Quote from Option Trader:

So this is the only thing itching you about religion and belief in God is that you can't find garbage remains from the Jews in the desert?

There are many more instances where NO archaeological records or evidence are found to support biblical stories (btw-they are good stories and in many valuable lessons may be learned) but they remain stories until scientific evidence is found.

How is anyone to believe that 600000 men and their families, numbering in the millions total, left nothing behind during the 40 years it took to find a place to settle down?


Seneca

 

[seneca_roman]

Quote from Option Trader:

1. See Exodus 10:7; that was the relevant concern in Egypt right before the 7th plague. See Exodus 14:13 regarding the impact of the splitting of the Red Sea.
2. See Exodus 13:20-21 regarding the cloud of glory and the pillar of fire that led the Jewish people through the desert.
3. See my answer regarding your Jacob quote.

As for your quotes from Genesis, you are working with an English translation, I am working with the original Hebrew. The original Hebrew says "Elo(k)him" which in many places means angel. The section is obviously talking about fighting with an angel, and the Jewish commentators say it means angel of God.
Also, a famous example of not to read the Bible literally, rather with proper interpretation, is "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" which means financial restitution, but written that way so that the rich man will not view the poor man's tooth as a financial issue (if to knock it out or not), rather as important as his own tooth.
BTW, As for your Bible quotes, if you are citing quotes from Christian doctrines (Galatians), you should pose those questions to a priest.

Any evidence not from the Bible that supports the biblical account?

BTW-thought that Elohim is plural and is used as a plural in Genesis indicating multiple gods.