Analysis of Christopher Hitchen's argument against God

stu -- your article... it supports what I have been saying is the state of abiogenesis...

I think you manifest and ignorance of science or a deficit in comprehension.... but I will give you chance to learn...

I will give you a hint...

"it says that since there is no chance that random chance could have created the birth of a bacteria.... science has chosen to state it is a given... that the first bacterial was created in a billion years on earth by some natural process.

----- see that stu... go read it... it is very clear.



By giving me the quote in context... as I asked..
We just proved you were incredibly wrong.... again.
You are so stuck in your world view you refuse to accept science.


Now the next clause - the categorical chance clauses is modifying what happens after the first bacteria is born... then the first cell can turn into a calculus professor. According to de duve that was the easy part... and that part of evolution from cell to professor has mounds of evidence.


But - you were too emotional to understand that...
I expect your apology. Nah, I know that you are not that evolved.
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:

So I make the sentence once ever and you repeat it six times in one post. That means by your faith and belief styled logic system, it's me with a finger on the repeat button.

Yes, you have your finger on the repeat button.

You've sent that critical thinking and rigorous examining of issues logically straight out the window already.

Make it about me is to deny your lack of rigorous examining of issues logically.

Childish way of not responding to my claim.

The same nonsensical argument you use for intelligent design creationism is used to this day by flat earthers trying to prop up their ridiculous claims too.

I'm not making an argument for creationism. I'm making an argument that non ID has no logical foundation when the cornerstone is an assumption of blind ignorant chance, an assumption lacking falsification, direct evidence, or knowledge of how, why, or where this imagined force of blind random chance works.

Simply claiming "it must be an accident" because of ignorance is sloppy stuff.

Like you , they seem to think it is intelligent to just ignore, dispute, deny and decry science along with any fact that get in the way of their beliefs.

Again, the pattern repeats. You have no defense nor actual rebuttal, buy make up some lie that I am denying science.

Repeatedly I have asked for fact and proof of random ignorant blind chance, and the atheists just go mute and then begin with the ad hominems.

Rigorous logic? Don't be absurd.
Your so called logic would have you moaning whenever you get your sums wrong


Non responsive.

..."math is littered with more unproved, improvable, and replaced theories than are currently in favor"

So you are suggesting that math is blah, blah, blah.

My comments went to the history of theories in science, not math.

The current love affair with a theory that is not self evident nor founded on fact, but appeals to atheists.

There is no critical thinking in faith and belief.

Then suspend your belief in random ignorant chance, or stay in your faith and belief. Your option.

That's the idea, there is no thinking, you get to flunk class altogether.

Correct, the thinking ended with assuming something that is a modus tollens fallacy.

If random ignorant chance, then blind evolutionary process.

Since I believe blind evolutionary theory is true therefore random ignorant chance is a fact.

It is so fundamentally flawed. Beginning with an assumption, then a second assumption of a theory then claimed to be a fact, not one possible theory. Then the the first assumption is claimed to be true without doubt because the assumed theory now stated as fact proves that random ignorant chance is fact.

It really shows the strength of faith, than even when presented with the logical fallacy, the only response I have seen is repeated claim and testifying that "evolution is a fact."

Appraisal based on careful analytical evaluation to show up error, to guide discovery of fact, that's critical thinking.

There has been no discovery or any fact of a force or process of blind ignorant random chance. It is just one possibility, and a guess.

Of course using it will leave the place littered with the unproved and improvable and the plain wrong.

Yes, assuming something as fact, when fact is not proved does belong in the litter box.

But that’s the point. Those things are able to be firmly identified by critical thinking , as science and fact also do .

Blind random ignorant chance has not been firmly identified, by either critical thinking, or science, and as such is not fact.

They are not, nor are they intended to be identified, by faith and belief.

Yes, science doesn't intend scientists to be willfully ignorant or to assume some force or pattern of random ignorant chance. It can be proposed as a possibility, but a fact?

Not a fact.

I suggest you try beliefing your next response by faith, and not at the speed of light by the discoveries of science littered with all those improvables. That way cyber space will be saved from one less absurd remark of yours.

More blather.

Intelligent design creationism.

You are really hung up with creationism, which I'll repeat, is not what I am suggesting. I suggest non design is not a fact, but rather a belief.

Flat earthers’ logic - only less so.

Yes, I know your opinion. Now how about some fact for a change.
Evolution. Fact.
 
Quote from jem:

stu -- your article... it supports what I have been saying is the state of abiogenesis...

I think you manifest and ignorance of science or a deficit in comprehension.... but I will give you chance to learn...

I will give you a hint...

"it says that since there is no chance that random chance could have created the birth of a bacteria.... science has chosen to state it is a given... that the first bacterial was created in a billion years on earth by some natural process.

----- see that stu... go read it... it is very clear.



By giving me the quote in context... as I asked..
We just proved you were incredibly wrong.... again.
You are so stuck in your world view you refuse to accept science.


Now the next clause - the categorical chance clauses is modifying what happens after the first bacteria is born... then the first cell can turn into a calculus professor. According to de duve that was the easy part... and that part of evolution from cell to professor has mounds of evidence.


But - you were too emotional to understand that...
I expect your apology. Nah, I know that you are incapable of that.


Stop tying to change the subject.
Your claims about de Deuv are false.
Trying confuse and contradict yourself with even more dishonest argument doesn’t alter any of that that.
 
Quote from killthesunshine:

+1 stu. way to expose his nonsense
Thank you most kindly kts.
I can't help realizing when conversing with the blind in faith, how science is all about standing on the shoulders of giants, whilst religion intelligent design creationism, is basically to do dumbing everything down so to grovel at the feet of an imaginary one.
 
Quote from stu:

Stop tying to change the subject.
Your claims about de Deuv are false.
Trying confuse and contradict yourself with even more dishonest argument doesn’t alter any of that that.

change the subject... I just presented you your proof showing that that I and the professor from MIT quoted de duve in context.


I would expect an apology but I know you are not that evolved.
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:

Just ask a simple straight question, like:

What is the proof of blind random ignorant chance?

Have scientists ever produced life from non life?

Have scientists ever observed complex organ evolution directly?


http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/252-evolutions-useless-organ-argument

Arguing against non ID is reasonable. Assuming that an argument against non ID is necessarily a claim for creationism is not true.

I get the same type of crap from the right wing ET crowd, who assume a fallacy of a false dilemma that because I argue against ultra right wing extremism, that I must be an ultra left wing extremist.

It is possible to have reasonable discussions with some people, who don't feel threatened by having their positions critically examined. Those people are secure in their beliefs, and are open minded to any new information, or exposition on their logic which shows a false step, as they are seeking only the truth, not looking to perpetuate a dogma that emotionally driven.

Maybe it is because the atheists are such a minority group, that they feel insecure and threatened by the majority, and take a "you are either with the atheists, or against us" position.

you have your way of arguing, which is impressive... but I like proving people wrong from their own evidence.

as I just did to Stu.

Once he gave me the quote in context... I was able to show he did not understand the science..... once again.
 
finally, I might add..

how the hell could stu... think he was right when the article ended with this quote from the nobel prize winner.


But the succession of chances that created life did not operate in a vacuum, he said. "It operated in a universe governed by orderly laws and made of matter endowed with specific properties. These laws and properties are the constraints that shape evolutionary roulette and restrict the numbers that can turn up. Among these numbers are life and all its wonders, including the conscious mind."

At best, a scientific mind would wonder... how did those laws get orderly...

what does matter "endowed" with specific properites mean...
(it harkens to inalienable rights endowed by a Creator, does it not)

Constraints? where did they come from? among those ---- are life, all its wonders and the conscious mind.


Please Stu... you think the MIT professor was quoting that man out of context....
 
In summary...

this was the quote... taken form the website of an MIT professor....



“If you equate the probability of the birth of a bacteria cell to chance assembly of its atoms, eternity will not suffice to produce one… Faced with the enormous sum of lucky draws behind the success of the evolutionary game, one may legitimately wonder to what extent this success is actually written into the fabric of the universe.”

- Christian de Duve. “A Guided Tour of the Living Cell” (Nobel laureate and organic chemist)

Stu filling his bag with insults hurled at me insisted that de duve was taken out of context.. He did this by apparently cutting and pasting parts of de duve quotes out of context.


It was now shown that --- science concurs with the use of de Duve's quote by myself and the MITs professor... as of now science does not have any scientific proof life came non life.

De Duve explains that science just currently accepts it happened.
 
Quote from jem:
in summary...

this was the quote... taken form the website of an MIT professor....
..taken from "Judaism Online" website. Did you ever think to expect a strong religious skew?

Quote from jem:

"If you equate the probability of the birth of a bacteria cell to chance assembly of its atoms, eternity will not suffice to produce one… Faced with the enormous sum of lucky draws behind the success of the evolutionary game, one may legitimately wonder to what extent this success is actually written into the fabric of the universe."

- Christian de Duve. "A Guided Tour of the Living Cell" (Nobel laureate and organic chemist)


Stu filling his bag with insults hurled at me insisted that de duve was taken out of context.. He did this by apparently cutting and pasting parts of de duve quotes out of context.
You take a quote from a website purposely promoting religion. You cut & paste a de Duve quote which is obviously only part of something, as it is in the form of a rhetorical question, then you accuse me of cutting and pasting out of context.

Quote from jem:

It was now shown that --- science concurs with the use of de Duve's quote by myself and the MITs professor... as of now science does not have any scientific proof life came non life.
"It was now shown" ….. no such thing ---

The de Duve quote you cut & pasted poses a scenario and from it suggests "one may legitimately wonder to what extent this success is actually written into the fabric of the universe."

From it you conclude and announce on behalf of science and de Duve there can be no life from non life.
That’s your deceit.
Using de Duve’s quote shows nothing and says nothing about life from non life.

And by the way Christian de Duve is a biochemist not an "organic chemist" whatever an organic chemist may be.

Quote from jem:

De Duve explains that science just currently accepts it happened.
Not in that quote he doesn’t. Nowhere in it does he mention that science accepts it just ‘happened’.

So what about this quote of his. Strange how even as it stands on its own unlike the one used by you, this one doesn’t hold any weight enough to be included on that MITs professor's religious website.

  • "The answer of modern molecular biology to this much-debated question is categorical: chance, and chance alone, did it all, from primeval soup to man, with only natural selection to sift its effects. This affirmation now rests on overwhelming factual evidence. "Christian de Duve. "A Guided Tour of the Living Cell" (Nobel laureate and NOT organic chemist)

"Chance and chance alone". It couldn’t be clearer. It didn’t just happen. “Primeval soup to man, with only natural selection to sift its effects”.
That IS ‘life from non life.’


Were you being at all honest, that quote of de Duve would have quashed any wishful thinking that you should persistently continue to misrepresent what was actually being said.
But then my own opinion is you are fundamentally a dishonest person.


There is no intelligent argument for intelligent design creationism.
Science won’t help you because make-believe and deceit is all you actually have to start with.
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:

I'm making an argument that non ID has no logical foundation when the cornerstone is an assumption of blind ignorant chance, an assumption lacking falsification, direct evidence, or knowledge of how, why, or where this imagined force of blind random chance works.

Then you are simply making an argument on a false premise.
Evolution is not an assumption of blind ignorant chance. That is your rather uninformed assumption of Evolution.

Evolution by natural selection is the govenor of chance. Without it, blind ignorant chance could not produce the infinite varieties and adaptions in organisms. If they ever got started but were never subject to the influences of evolution, blind random chance would mean nothing would be reacting to the environment specifically and adapting to survive in it.
Blind random chance offers non of the diversity that comes with the selection withing the evolutionary process.

You are wrong. Scientific understanding is the falsification, direct evidence, and knowledge of how, why, and where blind random chance is not how evolution works.
 
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