Analysis of Christopher Hitchen's argument against God

Remove blind ignorant chance, you have nothing.

You have change without explanation or cause. No proof of non ID. No fact of non ID. Just a rigid belief in ID.

You have a guess at effect for the cause, but no direct evidence of the cause, no fact of the cause.

No proof of natural selection, that is just another wild guess. No proof of common descent, just another wild guess.

Every change could just as easily be ID as non ID.

All you have is natural happenings...but no legitimate explanation as to the cause of the happenings in nature. Just "well, it is just nature doing its thing."

So a young boy in school innocently asks, "Why is nature the way it is?"

The teacher, if honest says we don't know.

If the teacher is an atheist, he says "Nature is the way it is because of blind ignorant chance."

If the teacher is theistic (including deistic) he says "Nature is the way it is because nature following the programming of design."


Quote from stu:

Then you are simply making an argument on a false premise.
Evolution is not an assumption of blind ignorant chance. That is your rather uninformed assumption of Evolution.

Evolution by natural selection is the govenor of chance. Without it, blind ignorant chance could not produce the infinite varieties and adaptions in organisms. If they ever got started but were never subject to the influences of evolution, blind random chance would mean nothing would be reacting to the environment specifically and adapting to survive in it.
Blind random chance offers non of the diversity that comes with the selection withing the evolutionary process.

You are wrong. Scientific understanding is the falsification, direct evidence, and knowledge of how, why, and where blind random chance is not how evolution works.
 
Natural Selection Is Not 'Nature's Intelligence'
by Randy J. Guliuzza, P.E., M.D. *

Evolutionists claim that creatures only appear to be designed since their existence is best explained by the interaction of genetic mutations and natural selection. Natural selection includes the capability for creatures to generate various heritable traits with varying degrees of impact on their survival. The key question to evolutionists is: What originally initiated this ability to generate traits? They claim natural selection produced it by working on nature's emergent properties (spontaneously created complexity).1 This explanation is very weak--it is circular and invokes mystical environmental properties.

Evolutionists rely on ascribing an intention-to-act to the environment. They believe that for every trait in a creature, there is a corresponding environmental variable that caused it--such as polar bears' white fur and their arctic surroundings. The power behind variability is environmental, residing outside the creature.

This reveals why evolution advocates believe it is totally rational to explain that life's complexity results from the ever-upward pressure of natural selection's ability to see and save traits, though it, itself, is undirected and absolutely blind to any goal.

The Evolutionist's Dilemma

Evolutionists must use words like "undirected" and "blind" to reinforce that natural selection, not God, creates nature's design. But an unavoidable side effect is that those same words hinder people from accepting evolution. They resist believing that any process that cannot "see" needs, is "blind" to natural forces, has "undirected" plans or goals, and relies heavily on chance, can create complex design.

This dilemma divides evolutionists. For one faction, keeping naturalism pure from any hint of divine action is paramount. They do not flinch when asserting the almost exclusive role of blind chance. The other group's top goal is getting everybody to believe in evolution. They deftly downplay chance and push the concept that natural selection constructs methodically--in law-like fashion.1 Human evolution is now touted as being "inevitable."2 University of Chicago evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne seems aware that people recoil from the suggestion that design results from chance. Note his forceful retort to Senator Sam Brownback:

Brownback also presents the familiar creationist misrepresentation of evolution as a chance process, claiming that "man...is merely the chance product of random mutations." He doesn't seem to know that while mutations occur by chance, natural selection, which builds complex bodies by saving the most adaptive mutations, emphatically does not. Like all species, man is a product of both chance and lawfulness.3

Coyne's assertion sounds formidable but is illegitimate. He attributes powers far beyond reality to environmental selection. He needs natural selection to behave lawfully, but it actually operates by chance, cannot see needs, and is too weak to halt the cumulative destructive effect of evolution's own fuel--mutations.

Environmental Processes Are Random

Unpredictable is the opposite of law-like and is a far more accurate description of earth's environments. Any trait suitable, or advantageous, for one environment may be unsuitable the next year. This uncertainty is why Harvard's greatest evolutionist, Ernst Mayr, said, "In fact, nothing is predetermined. Furthermore, the objective of selection may change from one generation to the next, as environmental circumstances vary."4

Extinction is another phenomenon demonstrating how powers attributed to natural selection are fabricated. Evolution by natural selection means that groups of creatures change over time by a specific process that demands that gradual development and gradual extinction go hand in hand. Most extinction should result from the slow, steady, relative decrease in survival due to the inability to compete with offspring or rivals; but is this true?

Extinction is historically how species respond to unpredictable and drastic environmental changes--not to "bad" genes. No evidence shows that extinct classes of creatures were less fit to survive normal environmental hazards than kinds alive today. Substantial worldwide environmental fluctuations, well-documented geologically, are known to cause massive extinctions. These are augmented by intermediate environmental instabilities, like the Ice Age. Thus, extinction largely results from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. As Mayr said, "Chance may be particularly important in the haphazard survival during periods of mass extinction."5

Environmental changes and mutations are chance-driven occurrences that would not be expected to tend toward biological improvements. Prominent evolutionary paleontologist David Raup candidly observed of the fossil record: "It is not always clear, in fact it's rarely clear, that the descendants were actually better adapted than their predecessors. In other words, biological improvement is hard to find."6 DNA studies reveal no consistent evolutionary trend toward increased genomic complexity.7 Even plant offspring cloned from one parent and subject to the same starting soil conditions and environmental pressures have differing numbers of flowers and seeds.8

Other than wishful thinking, there has been no uncontested discovery of any creative, dynamic, emergent property or lawfulness imbued in environments. Environmental selection is not a non-random deterministic force; rather, a lot of chance events are observed. Nature tolerates many inferior horses without eliminating them; some seeds with superior genetics land on rocks while inferior ones land on good soil; environmental changes cause arbitrary extinctions; and accidents happen to even the best animals.

Environmental Processes Are Blind

Darwin idealized the all-seeing, god-like attribute associated with natural selection:

It may be said that natural selection is daily and hourly scrutinising, throughout the world, every variation, even the slightest; rejecting that which is bad, preserving and adding up all that is good; silently and insensibly working, whenever and wherever opportunity offers.9

This is not true. Environments do not "see" any individual gene. Even when environmental factors influence the genome, these interactions are managed by innate features in DNA. Natural selection cannot unequivocally identify which trait was the one "selected for" for an animal in any environment--but natural selection is purported to explain the origin of an animal's design by recounting the history of its traits. Thus, evolutionists increasingly claim that changes even down to the molecular level result from neutral evolution that proceeds untouched by natural selection.10 Geneticists document that environments are powerless to eliminate most mutations. This buildup results in a total human genome degeneration of 1 to 2 percent per generation.11

Learning a Short Example

Is it reasonable to say that research has shown that, in the wild, natural selection of traits in any direction is so uncommon that it may not exist?

Yes. The American Naturalist published the largest analysis of the degree to which selection of changes of specific physical traits in an animal group affects their fitness--as measured by survival, mating success, and offspring. It tabulated 63 prior field studies covering 62 species and over 2,500 estimates of selection. Significance was obtained using statistical analysis and not opinions. The highest median correlation of trait selection to fitness was a low 16 percent. This means 84 percent of changes were not explained by selection. Directional and stabilizing selection were no more likely to happen than non-directional and disruptive selection. In studies with species sample sizes greater than 1,000, the correlation of selection to survival was essentially negligible.12

Pulling It All Together

When constructing arguments for design, it is important to know why the only other explanation for intelligent design--natural selection--does not work. Research shows that environmental changes are just as random as mutations. But limits are necessary to the amount of luck allowed into science--otherwise, it degenerates into magic. Claims of unquantifiable emergent properties or lawfulness are equally mystical. Nevertheless, evolutionists claim reproductive abilities were not designed, but emerged by natural selection's powers to blindly see traits and lawfully save them with no final purpose to build complexity.

Reasoned minds must categorically push back the invalid claim that environments select organisms or even traits. This fallacy is essential to perpetuating evolutionary theory. No natural explanation exists for how creatures originally reproduced varieties of traits. It is not survival of the fittest, it is really survival of the "fitted." Creatures came designed with innate abilities to diversify, multiply, and fill environments.
 
Quote from stu:

..taken from "Judaism Online" website. Did you ever think to expect a strong religious skew?


You take a quote from a website purposely promoting religion. You cut & paste a de Duve quote which is obviously only part of something, as it is in the form of a rhetorical question, then you accuse me of cutting and pasting out of context.


"It was now shown" ….. no such thing ---

The de Duve quote you cut & pasted poses a scenario and from it suggests "one may legitimately wonder to what extent this success is actually written into the fabric of the universe."

From it you conclude and announce on behalf of science and de Duve there can be no life from non life.
That’s your deceit.
Using de Duve’s quote shows nothing and says nothing about life from non life.

And by the way Christian de Duve is a biochemist not an "organic chemist" whatever an organic chemist may be.


Not in that quote he doesn’t. Nowhere in it does he mention that science accepts it just ‘happened’.

So what about this quote of his. Strange how even as it stands on its own unlike the one used by you, this one doesn’t hold any weight enough to be included on that MITs professor's religious website.

  • "The answer of modern molecular biology to this much-debated question is categorical: chance, and chance alone, did it all, from primeval soup to man, with only natural selection to sift its effects. This affirmation now rests on overwhelming factual evidence. "Christian de Duve. "A Guided Tour of the Living Cell" (Nobel laureate and NOT organic chemist)

"Chance and chance alone". It couldn’t be clearer. It didn’t just happen. “Primeval soup to man, with only natural selection to sift its effects”.
That IS ‘life from non life.’


Were you being at all honest, that quote of de Duve would have quashed any wishful thinking that you should persistently continue to misrepresent what was actually being said.
But then my own opinion is you are fundamentally a dishonest person.


There is no intelligent argument for intelligent design creationism.
Science won’t help you because make-believe and deceit is all you actually have to start with.


Stu you write such crap...
But lets review....


"If you equate the probability of the birth of a bacteria cell to chance assembly of its atoms, eternity will not suffice to produce one… Faced with the enormous sum of lucky draws behind the success of the evolutionary game, one may legitimately wonder to what extent this success is actually written into the fabric of the universe."

that was the quote from de duve... and now I will give you the co discoverer of DNA (crick) saying virtually the same thing. (also from your new york times article)

"Some scientists, including Dr. Francis Crick, co-discoverer of the double-helical structure of DNA, have suggested that life had too little time to originate on the primitive earth, given only a "prebiotic soup" of simple chemicals. They have proposed that life might have reached the earth in the form of spores sent out from some distant planet."

So now we have the co discoverer of DNA and a nobel prize winner saying there was not enough time for chance to cause the first life on earth.


it is stu against noble prize winners, again.



---

since you do not understand what you read.... I will explain it your article from the times to you.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...&pagewanted=all



1. no current proof of abiogenesis on earth and not likely to get it. The author of your articles started off by saying it is getting vanishingly small.
2. Science therefore accepts that it happened in one billion years on earth some way some how. De Duve is quoted as saying it a lot easier that believing in pan spermia.
3. so why no proof of evolution into the first cell or life -- there is proof (according to de duve) that once life happened the first cell evolved to a math professor in 150,000 generations
4. But, the article said, de duve said the observer should note that evolution was not random, it was directed by laws, constraints and "endowed" material.
One of those contraints was that man with a conscience should pop up.
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:

Remove blind ignorant chance, you have nothing.

You have change without explanation or cause. No proof of non ID. No fact of non ID. Just a rigid belief in ID.

You have a guess at effect for the cause, but no direct evidence of the cause, no fact of the cause.

No proof of natural selection, that is just another wild guess. No proof of common descent, just another wild guess.

Every change could just as easily be ID as non ID.

All you have is natural happenings...but no legitimate explanation as to the cause of the happenings in nature. Just "well, it is just nature doing its thing."

So a young boy in school innocently asks, "Why is nature the way it is?"

The teacher, if honest says we don't know.

If the teacher is an atheist, he says "Nature is the way it is because of blind ignorant chance."

If the teacher is theistic (including deistic) he says "Nature is the way it is because nature following the programming of design."
In the removing of what you call blind ignorant chance, you have natural selection and evolution.

Take away your intelligent design creator and you have common sense. Infinite regress is no explanation.

Of course natural selection is proven.

Every change could not as easily be by ID. The process of Natural selection and evolution already affects change.
You can only imagine ID.

The process of design is evolution. There is no need for ID.

Why is nature the way it is?
Because if were any other way and you could, you'd still be asking the same question, and never finding any real explanation as to why it is the way it is.
That's what science is for, and is the way it is.

For the ID'er , it would seem denial of everything will always be the only route with no intelligent argument for ID.
 
Quote from jem:

Stu you write such crap...
But lets review....

"If you equate the probability of the birth of a bacteria cell to chance assembly of its atoms, eternity will not suffice to produce one… Faced with the enormous sum of lucky draws behind the success of the evolutionary game, one may legitimately wonder to what extent this success is actually written into the fabric of the universe."

that was the quote from de duve... and now I will give you the co discoverer of DNA (crick) saying virtually the same thing. (also from your new york times article)

"Some scientists, including Dr. Francis Crick, co-discoverer of the double-helical structure of DNA, have suggested that life had too little time to originate on the primitive earth, given only a "prebiotic soup" of simple chemicals. They have proposed that life might have reached the earth in the form of spores sent out from some distant planet."

So now we have the co discoverer of DNA and a nobel prize winner saying there was not enough time for chance to cause the first life on earth.

it is stu against noble prize winners, again.

---

since you do not understand what you read.... I will explain it your article from the times to you.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...&pagewanted=all

1. no current proof of abiogenesis on earth and not likely to get it. The author of your articles started off by saying it is getting vanishingly small.
2. Science therefore accepts that it happened in one billion years on earth some way some how. De Duve is quoted as saying it a lot easier that believing in pan spermia.
3. so why no proof of evolution into the first cell or life -- there is proof (according to de duve) that once life happened the first cell evolved to a math professor in 150,000 generations
4. But, the article said, de duve said the observer should note that evolution was not random, it was directed by laws, constraints and "endowed" material.
One of those contraints was that man with a conscience should pop up.
You're trying to evade again.

You used a specific quote of de Duve's which posed his own scenario requiring an answer .
You used it to prop up a false argument for intelligent design or at least the possibility of it.

The next quote from de Duve quashed any prospect of intelligent design. In it he categorically refutes ID.

You ignore that , yet alone and in full context it completely rules out any and all suggestions or possibility of intelligent design from any other quotes as far as he is concerned.
Your Nobel prize winner says NO ID.


Again:
deDuve in one single quote which you refuse to recognize, categorically states NO to ID.

Bringing other aspects in doesn’t make any difference to that.
Whatever things you try to divert away with, whatever he or Crick says, cannot go without that unequivocal statement for no id being taken into account.

Persisting in not recognizing so , you are being deceitful untruthful and dishonest about the whole thing. All in a desperate attempt to get science and your list of Nobel prize winners to give some credibility to what are ridiculous assertions for an imaginary intelligent design creator.
It fails.
Miserably.
 
"The process of design is evolution."

Design is seen in the process of evolution.

Oh, someone might say "The design of nature...."

Which still begs the question, why is nature the way it is?

That's what scientists have been trying to discover since the beginning of science.

Do scientists know why nature is the way it is?

No, of course not.

They make guesses, like blind ignorant random chance...having no way to verity that, having no way to affirm or deny it, having no way to rule out of know if it is not blind ignorant chance.

They just make a guess, then design a model that is designed on the concept of blind ignorant random chance. The crude model can't predict if and when any particular act of random chance took place, they can't predict in the future when a random chance mutation might happen...or why it might actually happen...they can't initiate random ignorant chance, can't reproduce it in the lab...because it doesn't exist.

It has no existence. Blind ignorance chance is just the opposite of ID. They can't stomach the thought of ID, can't imagine a design process to efficient and pervasive, they can't imagine there is a program...because if things are programmed, it begs the question of how did nature get programmed.

Nature could be self programmed and eternal, that's one possibility. However, an eternal Universe is not embraced by scientific thought. I will dispose of the concept of theory, because there is no cogent theory of how or why the Universe exists, just thoughts of scientists...musings at best.

However, if scientists were to replace non ID with ID, the process of evolution would still be the same. Each change, each interaction in the environment that leads to genetic change would be exactly the same.

Nothing changes, but causation.

So causation can be ID or non ID, and since there is no way to prove either, it is logical to assume neither or assume both as equal possibilities.

A true agnostic would have no problem with that.

The atheist can't stomach even the possibility of ID...so they are found being logically inconsistent in their promotion of non ID as fact.

Quote from stu:

In the removing of what you call blind ignorant chance, you have natural selection and evolution.

Take away your intelligent design creator and you have common sense. Infinite regress is no explanation.

Of course natural selection is proven.

Every change could not as easily be by ID. The process of Natural selection and evolution already affects change.
You can only imagine ID.

The process of design is evolution. There is no need for ID.

Why is nature the way it is?
Because if were any other way and you could, you'd still be asking the same question, and never finding any real explanation as to why it is the way it is.
That's what science is for, and is the way it is.

For the ID'er , it would seem denial of everything will always be the only route with no intelligent argument for ID.
 
Quote from stu:



For the ID'er , it would seem denial of everything will always be the only route with no intelligent argument for ID.

right! they always point to what we don't know (as if that's proof of their nonsense) rather than what THEY do KNOW or can prove. :D
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:

...Which still begs the question, why is nature the way it is?
Evolution is the result of natural selection, which is often referred to as the survival of the fittest. Natural selection is the result of mutational "trial and error," and time. Lots and lots of time. You don't accept the evidence because you have not taken the time to even acquaint yourself with the evidence. And so, you engage in your insular thought experiments, impressing yourself with your ability to reject those pesky facts that don't coincide with your own grand design of the universe. When was the last time you actually read a book on evolution, rather that merely someone's cavalier dismissal of it? No, my guess is that you prefer to look "inward" for your answers regarding this subject matter.

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"Evolution is the result of natural selection, which is often referred to as the survival of the fittest."

Does the above theory exist as a product of chance or design?

Do the actual process in nature happen the way they do as a result of design or chance?

Simple questions...

Quote from Gabfly1:

Evolution is the result of natural selection, which is often referred to as the survival of the fittest. Natural selection is the result of mutational "trial and error," and time. Lots and lots of time. You don't accept the evidence because you have not taken the time to even acquaint yourself with the evidence. And so, you engage in your insular thought experiments, impressing yourself with your ability to reject those pesky facts that don't coincide with your own grand design of the universe. When was the last time you actually read a book on evolution, rather that merely someone's cavalier dismissal of it? No, my guess is that you prefer to look "inward" for your answers regarding this subject matter.

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