666...the Devils Moving Average

Quote from axeman:

"must be held negligent by who,"
Any reasonable person.
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Why is it assumed reasonable to hold God negligent? It would seem to me the height of irrationality to hold in contempt the supreme being who both drew up the rules of the game and gave us the faculties of reason and moral perception in the first place.


" and to what effect? "
Who cares.
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If you don't care, why waste time and energy on directing negative feelings towards God in the first place?


"you might as well hold time and space in contempt."
Bad comparison.
Time and space cannot be held morally responsible for
their actions or inaction.
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To hold someone morally responsible implies an ability to punish, instruct or otherwise effect change, even if in the very smallest of ways. Since God is immovable, unchangeable and omnipotent, you might as well be condemning time and space as grievances brought against God are in actually grievances with His creation.

It also seems illogical to declare the creator of morality immoral as He is the sole source of morality in the first place. Good is a standard that He created, and a measure unto Himself. If He created the universe and is the source of all excellence within it, what other standard could there be?

Also: if you were created in God's image, then your ability to exercise moral perception is an extension of Him. So how do you condemn the source of your ability to condemn? And in comparison to what higher standard? It's similar to postmodernists who try to use logical arguments to discredit logic.



"also, if you are unwilling to accept the possibility that God exists "
Who said I wasn't? I've explicitly stated in the past
that it's a possibility.
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I stand corrected.


"why would his characteristics matter at all anyway-
and why would the positive or negative aspects of his characteristics have any bearing on the possibility of his existence in the first place?"

Because they contradict some theists definition of god.
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Makes sense- I disagree strongly with many popular theistic concepts as well.
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Quote from stu:

The implication of what you say appears to suggest that people must first always and unreservedly believe in God after which the risk and reward can be appraised.

Using your analogy, in order that you may truely fly - first jump off the cliff, against integrity and all the available evidence which indicates an obvious and overwhelming absurdity in such commitment, - after which you then evaluate the risk and rewards of truly flying.

May I suggest if there are many potential implications and complexities ( it's difficult to see what these might be, as the idea itself simply appears irrational) then it is more meaningful to evaluate them before you commit your integrity rather than condemning it to a bad plan.

Especially if on jumping, you then recognize truly flying..... is before you jump.
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hey Stu, how's it going?

Actually that's not the direction I was intending to go- I'm no proponent of blind belief.

The flight analogy was more aimed at the intrinsic connection between risk and reward as it applies to freedom of the natural will. In order for man to have true capacity for greatness, he must have the capacity to fail and fall as well.

It wasn't really a point regarding faith as much as a counterpoint to the notion that a painless world would be preferable to this one.

Let me also add that I am no advocate of irrationality. If anything I would encourage anyone and everyone to think more about their decisions rather than less, to dig deeper, to strive more rather than less. If the last ten years are any indication, I will still be thirsty for knowledge 60 years from now when I'm 88 years old.

I wish we could step into each other's minds and trade mental frameworks, even if only for a few minutes, to see what each other's view of the world is like. I want to really and truly understand what you think and how you see reality, for the benefit of my own curiosity and understanding. If you have the same desire, you can start by accepting and noting the fact that my mental framework holds rationality and logic in just as high esteem as yours, and I have as much disdain for irrationality as anyone here if not more. This isn't a retort, just a suggestion.
 
Quote from Cutten:

"God is immovable, unchangeable and omnipotent"

Does he have the power to move or change himself? :D
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Does He need to?
 
Quote from LongShot:



an omnipotent being creates a few interesting conundrums
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Is an imnipotent being bound by conundrums?
 
Quote from Doubter:


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Is an imnipotent being bound by conundrums?
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i dont know, but it sure makes us feel a lot better if we can make rational sense of it.

If we are to speak to it at all we must use [Earthly] concepts and language to do so otherwise nothing could be said; other than unconditional belief you could say nothing more.

You would have to be quiet about the whole matter. The moment you open your mouth to say one thing about it you open the door to allow for other possible earthly attributes and logical conundrums and the like.

Either speak and think about it, or just believe quietly in blind faith. You cant have it both ways. :)
 
Quote from LongShot:



i dont know, but it sure makes us feel a lot better if we can make rational sense of it.

If we are to speak to it at all we must use [Earthly] concepts and language to do so otherwise nothing could be said; other than unconditional belief you could say nothing more.

You would have to be quiet about the whole matter. The moment you open your mouth to say one thing about it you open the door to allow for other possible earthly attributes and logical conundrums and the like.

Either speak and think about it, or just believe quietly in blind faith. You cant have it both ways. :)
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nice post, longshot. i knew there was a mind behind those posts somewhere !! lanquage is very limiting when describing the "unspeakable".

best,

surfer:D
 
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