3 thoughts about behavior

Quote from jack hershey:

... All the posters here ...
There are many unsuccessful traders as there are many overweight people (!).

To lose weight you simply have to put in your body less calories than you burn. Surely you achieve it by either reducing your calorie intake, or by increasing your calorie expenditure, or both. So why are still so many overweight people? Maybe they don't know this. Or maybe they don't believe it. Or maybe they don't have the will. Or maybe they don't have the patience. Or maybe they like to be fat (!).

It may be the same thing with your trading method and the loser traders ... (?).

For most traders who try them your methods, and your posts are just a mental workout program. They shouldn't jump into real money trading, but stick to competitions with entertainment value like: who draws the nicest, or complicated, or imaginative chart? or who is a bigger asshole toward the newbies of this methods? or who is the greatest pretender? etc. ... :)

Still, it would be nice to be able to help the worthy ones ... to lose weight ... and to get rich ...
 
Quote from charts:

There are many unsuccessful traders as there are many overweight people (!).

To lose weight you simply have to put in your body less calories than you burn. Surely you achieve it by either reducing your calorie intake, or by increasing your calorie expenditure, or both. So why are still so many overweight people?

Simple. . . . Something is broken and until it is fixed someone cannot be successful at weight loss. If the mind is faulty then all the weight loss programs are failures waiting to happen.
You have to fix the persons mindset first and correct all their beliefs. It starts with basic education of anatomy and behavior. Then on to further understanding triggers to failure. These principles must be addressed first before physical and nutritional education can be successful. People who go extreme and take on gastric bypass will experience the weight loss desired only to face failure as time passes because the behavior of the person has not been fixed. It is a mind set up for failure.
Bad habits must be addressed. Repeated cycles of gains and losses will be experienced until the mind is fixed first.
This is the most important step at winning.
 
TradeWrecker, thanks for starting this thread. Interesting questions you raise.

Quote from TradeWrecker:

1. The discussion of the psychological aspect to trading is rarely written by someone with any experience in that medical field. They have all kinds of opinions on how this or that makes you feel but no clinical research (basis).
It's the same reason football coaches are all former football players and public speaking trainers come from acting and not research labs.

Like public speaking or football, controlling emotions is a skill, it's not science. To learn a skill one doesn't need to know scientific basis behind the training method. As long as the method works, it's good enough.

Also people find it easier to relate to someone who experienced the subject (like coping with fear of public speaking or fear of a trading loss) themselves rather than to a person who studied hundreds of traders and people with fear of public speaking but never traded or had fear of speaking to large groups of people themselves.

Quote from TradeWrecker:

2. Most of the research I've read on Behavioral Finance tends to address the different biases we inherently have and how they affect our decision making, research, testing, etc.. I almost never see conversations surrounding this. What I mostly see are threads that describe how to keep your emotions in check while trading...
I think the reason for this is every trader (at least occasionally) experiences empotions while trading. So, this is the subject everyone on these forums can relate to.

On the other hand, behaviorial finance ( broadly, how emotions of idividual marklet perticipants translate into price action) is a very specialised subject with very small proportion of traders basing their ttrading strategy on it.

Similarly, there is much fewer posts on pair trading than in ES Journal alone. Far fewer traders engage in pair trading.

Quote from TradeWrecker:

3. If you want to keep your emotions in check while trading, get your risk profile in check. This often means having realistic goals in place. Here's a pretty simple rule of thumb; If you're excited with your returns, you're going to be depressed with your eventual losses Dial the leverage down, reduce your trading frequency and come to terms with the honest potentials of trading and adjust your “hopes and dreams” around it in an appropriate way.
Kepping risk low helps but it doesn't resolve psychological difficulties completely.

Imagine paper trading where no real monetary gain or loss is involved. Imagine one sets a goal to have 5 consequitive profitable (on paper) weeks before he or she starts trading real money. Here you immediately get a fear of having a loosing week, which will mean one will have to start the 5-week cycle again from week one.

Similarly, peopel trading in smaller size may have fear of not making enough to pay the bills.

Quote from TradeWrecker:

With the exception of those black-swan events, trading doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be an emotional roller coaster. If it is, it's not likely something you're going to be able to endure for very long, and it's all about the long-term gains.
This is very true...
 
Quote from wrbtrader:

I think the main reason why we tend to see threads about how to keep emotions in check while trading is that most traders try to keep it simple as possible even though such may be counter-productive. In contrast, if they had to sit down and plan realistic trading goals, analyze the impact of their inherent bias...it's not easy for most to sit down to closely examine how they interact with the markets let alone sit down to develop a plan involving how to manage that interaction with the markets.
Being mindful of what emotions one experiences is a necessary part of learning to keep emptions in check, isn't it?

Quote from wrbtrader:

The thing I find amusing or consider to be odd is that there are known folks here at Elitetrader.com or at other forums that have the belief that "psychology of trading" or "behavior finance" is voodoo or mumble jumbo. Yet, if you read their statements elsewhere at the forum...you can easily see the "emotions"and/or "psychological profile" in their own interaction with the markets when they talk about the markets.
I think lot of more experienced traders downplay the role of psychology in trading in an attempt to talk about trading as a good mentor. Naive interpretation of books like Trading in the Zone is that the psychological factor is the main reason any trader isn't profitable. While in reality having discipline and emotions sorted out won't create profitability in absence of any edge or trading plan. So, people experienced at mentoring traders emphasise finding a profitable trading method is the most important priority.

Quote from wrbtrader:

Besides, most forum discussions deals with trade signals or trades as realities instead of having a more well-rounded approach that must include the psychological aspects of trading and the markets.
The underlying idea is a sound trading signal can be derived completely mechanically from the market data without any subjectivity. If a signal involves subjectivity, then psychology starts playing an important role.
 
Quote from SarahNGuyen:

Psychology is way overrated in trading literature. When you understand this:

%win x avg win > %loser x avg loss = profit

the right state of mind naturally follows.

I'm not saying that experience doesn't matter, but writing 500 page on trading psychology? no way
500 is indeed overkill for covering a few simple ideas. The reason is in psychlogy of publishing. Most people feel better paying $50 for a book 500 pages long than for a book 20 pages long. Hence book authors have to add all the mumble and and hide the important ideas in it so as to satisfy what mass market demands.
 
Quote from TradeWrecker:

I sucked it up and dug back in for three more years to reestablish my track-record.
I know this is out of topic... but do you mind sharing what you did to establish a track record at the time? Did you run a hedge fund incubator, get personal trading account audited, become a CTA?
 
Quote from NoDoji:

If this were true, the vast majority of traders would be profitable because there are so many excellent trading books, CDs and seminars that teach you how to trade with positive expectancy, statistical edges and positive reward:risk ratios. Statistically, all you have to do is follow a set of rules and you can't help but be net profitable over time. The rules to follow aren't difficult understand, trade execution and management have never been easier, and you don't even need huge sums of money to get started (my son's friend started with $300).

I'm consistently profitable using really basic methods found in trading books I either checked out at the library or bought on Amazon.com, or saw demonstrated in free on-line webinars. I saw some of these webinars and read some of these books very early in my trading career and continued to trade inconsistently, make mistakes again and again, and realizing nasty losses for a significant period of time.

Knowledge and understanding in no way guarantees that the right state of mind (and consequently the right actions) will follow, because the hard statistics tell us that over 90% of traders are not profitable despite free educational materials and almost no barriers to entry.
There is one thing that puzzles me regarding this statement. If simple, transparent, non-subjective and profitable trading systems are easily available, why doesn't everyone automate them using something like NinjaTrader (no programming knowledge is required) and eliminate emotions altogether? Any thoughts?
 
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