1/4% Tax on all stock trades pushed in NY Times today

Ok here's a suggestion you can add in your letters/emails to politicians and the media:

"In the United Kingdom in the 1990s, some of the privatised utilities found themselves making profits way above what was initially expected before the government privatised them. It was felt that there was an undeserved one-off "windfall" to the shareholders due to the government selling them too cheaply. As a result, the UK government passed a one-off windfall profits tax to claw back some of the excess.

Fast forward to 2009, and many feel that the Wall Street firms that got giant government bailouts, and are now making good profits, have benefited excessively from public largesse. This has inspired a move in some areas of society towards supporting a "transactions tax" on financial trades. Whilst this may at first seem appealing, allow me to raise some obvious negative and injust consequences it would have:

[add the normal anti-transactions tax points here e.g. putting small traders, brokers, commodity players out of business, who had nothing to do with the credit crunch]

Because of this, I and many others feel that a more targeted, equitable, and deserved tax would be a one-off "windfall profits tax" on Wall Street institutions that benefited from the public bailout (to which I as a tax-payer contributed). Instead of capriciously ending the careers of tens of thousands of small firms and independent traders overnight, for a credit crisis they had no involvement with or blame for (thus raising costs for farmers to reduce their crop price risks, mortgage borrowers to hedge their interest rate risk, and other legitimate economic activity), you would be targeting those most responsible for the crisis, those who benefited most from the public purse, and those who are now making billions a year. A transactions tax would punish small businesses as well as large, it would hit prudent operators just as harshly as reckless bank directors and CEOs, and would hurt those on moderate incomes as much as it would billionaires. Don't destroy an entire industry, and legitimate small entrepreneurs, to punish the reckless few. A windfall profits tax would accomplish all you and the public need, whilst letting the innocent and hard-working small businessman survive during these tough economic times, for the benefit not just of them and their families, but their employees, their clients, and the public at large. If we can continue making a living, we continue paying taxes and contributing to the public purse instead of becoming a drain on it. We can pay our mortgages instead of defaulting on them.

For these reasons I urge you to oppose a blanket transactions tax, and consider more just and sensible alternatives like a windfall profits tax instead."
 
Quote from wjk:

"In the next decade, under the budget plans the Obama administration has in mind, that debt will almost double to about $20.67 trillion."

Depends on who you believe. Enjoy the new taxes coming, including the tax being discussed in this thread.

I'm no fan of Obama, voted Republican down the board in fact.

But, it's repugnant when someone uses a "fact" that's completely unsupportable, all just to support their bias.

In this case you're quoting a budget projection that extends two years after the legal limit of what would be Obama's second term in office. One that he hasn't even been elected to yet.
 
With the mkt skying 70% and $20 billion of bonus's as the nation suffers i assure you this tax is a done deal.The public wants revenge on the rich. Ironic as hell but wall streets greed the past 8 months is what does them in.
 
Quote from ksharmon:

------------

But this doesn't just have to do with the financial sector, it has to do with all the infrastructure that supports the new more democratic market.

You can speak about this in ways people understand.

Website designers for sites like realmoney.com or cbs marketwatch.com
etc. can lose their jobs over this.

people know webdesigners....

Here is a good way to make people realise the widespread impact:

Commodity traders allow farmers to hedge their crop price risk each season. Grain farmers get to reduce their risk to zero each year because of grain traders allowing them a quick, easy, and cheap hedge by taking the other side of their trades. They have done this on the CBOT for 150 years. A transactions tax would put most of these traders out of business. This would mean that farmers would be unable to reduce their crop risk. Corn prices ranged from 200 to over 800 in the last 3 years - imagine farming at 800 a bushel, then having to sell at 500 a bushel 6 months later because you couldn't hedge your crop. Why should farmers be put at risk of defaulting on their debts and being foreclosed on because a few Wall Street banks lent recklessly? Why should commodity traders be punished when they had nothing to do with the credit crunch, and put their own savings on the line each day, dealing with considerable risks to allow farmers to offset the risks inherent in their business?

Ditto for mortgage borrowers i.e. most homeowners. Bond futures traders allow banks to hedge their interest rate risk, thus allowing the provision of fixed rate mortgages, which let household borrowers fix their borrowing costs for 30 years. Without such hedges being widely available at small costs, it will be more difficult for banks to offer such mortgages - a transactions tax would destroy liquidity and widen spreads, eliminating most people who take the other side of hedgers traders. This would increase the cost of Main Street's mortgage payments, at a time when householders are already suffering the triple whammy of rising unemployment, falling wages, and declining property prices.

Are these really the consequences that transactions tax supporters want to impose on the real economy? No one supports largesse for Wall Street fat cats, but a transactions tax is the equivalent of using a chainsaw to take out an infected tooth. A more sensible, targeted approach that only affects the Wall Street bailout recipients would be more just, and achieve the desired results without ruining legitimiate sections of the economy.
 
more from revshark

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10635462/1/trading-tax-why-its-misguided.html

http://www.thestreet.com/print/story/10635462.html

What could be more appealing to politicians hungrily searching for revenue than a trading tax on those wealthy Wall Street firms that have helped cause the tremendous economic turmoil over the past year or so?

After all, it was "Wall Street" that helped created this financial mess by using excessive leverage, crazy financial instruments and some plain old bad judgment. So why shouldn't those evil greedy folks on Wall Street be forced to pay up, especially since the market has done so well for months now as unemployment continues to mount?

That is the idea behind legislation proposed by Rep. Peter DeFazio (D., Ore.). His proposed bill HR 1068 titled "Let Wall Street Pay for Wall Street's Bailout Act of 2009" has been modified and is now called "Let Wall Street Pay for the Restoration of Main Street Act of 2009." Both bills seek to impose a tax of 0.25% on the "sale or purchase of financial instruments such as stock, options and futures."

This sort of trading tax, which is often referred to as a "Tobin tax," isn't a new idea. Economist James Tobin of Yale suggested it 38 years ago as a way to deal with fluctuations in the international currency market after Richard Nixon eliminated the governmental obligation to convert dollars into gold upon request. With the gold standard eliminated there was concern that there would be wild currency fluctuations around the world. The intent of the Tobin Tax wasn't to raise revenues for other uses but to make currency swings less severe.

No Tobin Tax was ever enacted, but academics battled back and forth over the pros and cons for many years without reaching any clear conclusions as to the impact of such a tax. Subsequently, proponents in France and U.K. resurrected the idea of the tax on the basis that the funds raised by the tax could be used for a variety of charitable causes to improve the state of the world. Whether the tax actually impeded the efficient operation of financial market was of secondary consideration to those who desired to redistribute capital to causes they found worthy.

Does a Tobin Tax as proposed by Congressman DeFazio now make sense?

The first and foremost problem with such a tax is that it requires international coordination. Otherwise trading will simply move to jurisdictions that do not impose such a tax. There is nothing to stop a country like the Cayman Islands from establishing an exchange that facilitates transactions without the imposition of a transaction tax. Ironically, the biggest and most sophisticated traders will more readily find ways to circumvent the tax, leaving the bulk of the tax burden on the small individual traders and investors who don't have the capacity to exploit such loopholes.

You can be confident very agile and creative minds will try to find ways around the tax. There will be various exclusions from such taxes for things such as retirement plans or market makers. New financial instruments will likely be created, so at the end of the day the folks who pay this tax will be the average individual investors who have already been punished once by the economic system.

For argument's sake, let's assume that we can plug all the loopholes and shut down alternative avenues of trading. Is this tax still a good idea?

The first thing we should consider is what is the intent of this legislation? Is it to exact some measure of revenge against the individuals and institutions responsible for our economic woes? If so, the tax on trading is overly broad and punishes folks who have absolutely nothing to do with the excesses of Wall Street.

The blame for our economic problems lies with poor governmental regulation, short-sighted politicians, overly leveraged financial institutions, exotic financial instruments and banks and brokers who didn't understand risk. The people who buy and sell stocks on a daily basis bear no responsibility, but they will be punished by politicians who find it easy and convenient to lump them together in some mythical entity known as "Wall Street."

Banks, brokers and entities like AIG(AIG Quote) and General Motors received the benefit of hundreds of billions of dollars in bailouts, but the people who trade stocks receive the bill. How is that fair? If you want to exact punishment, then gear it toward the right targets. For example, impose an insurance premium on banks to fund a reserve to protect against future problems.

Taxing "Wall Street" sounds like a good idea until you realize that the politicians consider you and your family and friends to be part of Wall Street, just like Goldman Sachs (GS Quote) and Citigroup(C Quote).

But let's forget the problem of implementation and the fact that the tax is misdirected. Instead, lets consider whether it's a good way to raise revenue. Because the government supposedly will use the revenue for noble purposes like creating new jobs or paying down debt, isn't it still a good idea? After all, aren't their people who need the funds more than you?

Of course, the problem is that when the government takes money from one industry like trading and transfers it to another, it is impossible to have a positive net benefit. You might argue that the money serves a more noble purpose elsewhere so it doesn't matter that you actually have a net negative economic impact.

One thing you have to understand about the stock market is that it has undergone a tremendous change over the last 15 years or so, thanks to the Internet. It is now possible for someone in Iowa or Maine or Arizona to be a trader no different than those at the corner of Wall and Broad. Trading has been democratized, spawning a huge industry to service traders.

Not only do active traders pay substantial taxes but they support discount stock brokers, Web sites and a host of other businesses. They employ people and assist others who seek to earn returns on their capital.

Some try to dismiss the impact of the proposed tax, saying it is small. The problem, however, is that the tax would be similar to a value-added tax and would apply to all trades, even losing trades.

Let's assume that you have a trading account of $100,000. If you use it to buy $100,000 of stock and then sell that stock a short time later, you will owe a total transaction tax of one-half of 1%, or $500 (remember that each transaction -- buy or sell -- incurs a 0.25% tax), regardless of whether you made money on the trade.

Each time you completely turn over the capital in your account you will have to pay a tax of 0.5% of your entire capital. So if you turn your capital over 40 times in a year, which isn't hard for an active trader to do, you will owe a tax of 0.5% x 40, or 20% of your entire capital. If you have generated a 15% return from your trades you will end up with a loss of 5% because of the tax.

Active trading of that sort is quite common, so the tax will put many traders out of business. What's more, there will be a domino effect on the various businesses and employees that support those traders.

Assuming that the government will then use the revenue in a more productive way is just plain ridiculous, because there will be substantial administrative costs associated with collecting and then redistributing the money.

Furthermore, the tax will result in less tax revenue because capital gains will be reduced by the amount of the tax. But what would be even more costly is that many profitable trades will never take place in the first place because speculators will have greater risk. After all, they will have to pay the tax whether they make money or not. Potentially profitable and taxable transactions will never even occur, and that will decrease the net tax revenue even more.

Another major negative is that without active trading the markets will be much less liquid. The less liquid a market is the more likely it is to be volatile. We see this quite often in the real estate market where there are huge fluctuations in prices that result in transactions that are far removed from true fundamental values.

An illiquid market will make it much more difficult for smaller companies to raise capital. When there are few traders to keep a market liquid investors will be less willing to buy stocks because they will not be able to easily sell them when needed. Traders perform the great service of allowing longer-term investors an easier and less costly way of buying and selling stock when they need to.

Many of the folks who support a transaction tax on stocks seem to assume that longer-term investing is somehow more noble or moral than short-term speculation. The speculators are often portrayed as greedy and uncaring because they are attempting to generate big gains in a short period of time.

There is nothing inherently negative in a short-term approach vs. a long-term one. Short-term speculation is what helps keep stocks more accurately valued. Bad speculation is routinely punished by losses while speculation that results in stocks being more correctly valued results in gains. Speculation is the oil that keeps the machinery of a market operating smoothly, quickly and easily, and it should be encouraged rather than condemned.

A trading tax has very complicated economic implications and needs to be very carefully studied before it is imposed. Unfortunately, the proposed legislation fails to consider these consequences. It is highly destructive to capital markets and the trading industry. It will be a net economic negative and an extremely inefficient way to redistribute wealth.

I urge you to join my fight against the trading tax by signing my petition and sending letters to your representative and senators.
 
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

Governments would be truly stupid to allow such obvious exemptions.

What is it that people don't understand about this? If this tax passes, it will most likely be unified across all or most G20 economies. One country going solo makes little sense. That means US citizens will pay for transactions in the US, Europe, Dubai, Singapore, Switzerland - everywhere. Dubai or Swiss or Singapore citizens trading on NYSE, CME, Nasdaq will pay the tax too. EVERYONE will pay it EVERYWHERE except non-tax countries own domestic exchanges traded by their own citizens - and there will be no liquidity for dual listings, because the taxing countries will tax domestic institutions trying to escape abroad.

Please stop thinking you will be able to easily avoid this if it passes. Not a chance. The government may be stupid in general but they are not that dumb.

I agree with your other points and think your "form letter" is a good one. It's important to suggest an alternative - either an ongoing or one-off "windfall profits" tax on Wall Street bailout recipients.


I agree to a certian extent. However, it is good to point out that other exchanges are ready and willing to take our transaction business. This needs to be pointed out to the pro tax crowd domestically (media, bloggers, congressmen) who are less informed and nieve regarding this unintended consequence. It is the very point that is sticking with some key polititians as noted by, Polesi, Frank, as well as other leaders from counties advocating the tax.

Internationally (brought up by g20 and pushed by Brown, etc) it is at the heart of the issue. Without international consensus the tax will not work.

Krugman and other far left economist need to be called out on this very fact.

The more the domestic tax crowd understands this fact = less traction domsetically in my opinion.

In other words it is a good talking point, but not a reason to get lazy or quit the fight.
 
It is common sense that tax is that portion due to the nation for the good of all when a profit is made. However when tax is applied equally to losses as to profits, common sense has turned to folly.

You cannot tax a loss for there is nothing to tax. Such a tax would be an anti capitalist up front fine to destroy a business.

When such a tax is intended to penalize financial impropriety in banks, but is so badly targeted that it penalizes every person in the country who wisely tries to invest for and protect their future, folly has turned to madness.

And when daft accountants calculate transaction tax receipts based on current transaction levels, whereas in reality this "tax" would cripple transaction volumes, madness has reached it's zenith with a total disconnect from reality.
 
Wish Rev would focus a little more on the effects on the average individual INVESTORs across main st. america and less on traders.
 
Quote from jprad:

I'm no fan of Obama, voted Republican down the board in fact.

But, it's repugnant when someone uses a "fact" that's completely unsupportable, all just to support their bias.

In this case you're quoting a budget projection that extends two years after the legal limit of what would be Obama's second term in office. One that he hasn't even been elected to yet.

I think the deficit figure of 1.5 trillion this year alone is a supportable fact, and it supports my argument if accurate. That gives me a reason to believe projections will end in higher taxes as taxes enacted may be based on projections (see HC).

I'm sorry if you find my argument repugnant. You know which party currently supports higher taxes, and they have a supermajority. They will tax and spend without second thought of consequences. They will tax for future spending and we both know how that will end. It will never go for the stated cause.

I hate having to share tax burdens for reckless spending, including the transaction tax that will put my trading out of business. I would have been bankrupt years ago if I spent money like congress does.

It's not just about my bias, it's about my livelihood. And this transaction tax will drive a stake into the heart of my livelihood as I've abandoned my other businesses to trade. And as a trader, I really don't think the current crop of dems give a shit if they put me out of business. I know the republicans have taxed and spent in the past but they have never threatened my livelihood, thus as a republican supporter you should have no trouble understanding why I have a bias.
 
Back
Top