1/4% Tax on all stock trades pushed in NY Times today

Hello,

I'm new to this list. Robert Green suggested I join.

My view is that the only way to defuse the FTT is to show the public that it is going to come out of their pocket. This is the reality, because Wall Street will leave the arena, leaving only a tax on the public, who does not understand that the FTT is a tax on the core business functions that support the consumer.

So, what I see is necessary is education, and I proposerd to Robert that an LLC be set up for this purpose, to receive money and donations, for the purpose of educating the public.

The public does not care about traders, it does not care about spreads, liquidity, any of that. Traders are actually not considered an occupation by most, and in fact, the public thinks traders are gamblers.

So I don't think it does any good at all, to talk TO THE PUBLIC about the impact on Trader's lives, or abstract financial concepts they do not understand.

What matters to them is their own pocketbood, and when we truly analyze the FTT, it is a massive tax on the consumer, pennies at a time, to each individual. Just think about all the Foreign Trade that needs the Forex system. The costs are going to be passed to the consumer through Wall Mart, etc. Imported foods, wine...anything imported needs the Forex Interbank System to settle the currencies.

To me, if Obama is reelected the FTT could become a real possibility, as mentioned, his second term he will do whatever he wants and we know his historical ideology.

Even if Romney wins this issue will not go away. Because the populists believe truly, emotionally, that this is a way to punish the banks.

The only way to stop this, in my opinion, is to first recognize the populist anger is real. Then we need to show them that a FTT will be paid by main street....because the Wall Street money will simply go somewhere else...leaving only a tax that will trickle down to the consumer.

It is not enough to do this...they also need another direction to direct their energy. Anger is a powerful motivator. There are far better solutions than an FTT.

What I propose is to set up some very focused videos on youtube. We should be able to communicate the basic focused idea, that Main Street is going to pay the FTT, in 30 seconds.

If you remember one of Steve Job's talks about Apple Marketing...he said, even Apple needs to make an extremely focused, tight message because the American public is so distracted in modern life.

Once there are just a few excellent, short, focused videos on youtube, then we can start asking the populist leaders, the populist members, the journalists, congressmen, et cetera, to take a look there.

We create a tight focused message that cuts through the noise.

Thus, I don't believe it does any good at all, and is a waste of energy to talk to the public on the FTT in terms of how a trader sees it. They simply don't care.
 
Quote from Redshak:

Hello,

I'm new to this list. Robert Green suggested I join.

My view is that the only way to defuse the FTT is to show the public that it is going to come out of their pocket. This is the reality, because Wall Street will leave the arena, leaving only a tax on the public, who does not understand that the FTT is a tax on the core business functions that support the consumer.

So, what I see is necessary is education, and I proposerd to Robert that an LLC be set up for this purpose, to receive money and donations, for the purpose of educating the public.

The public does not care about traders, it does not care about spreads, liquidity, any of that. Traders are actually not considered an occupation by most, and in fact, the public thinks traders are gamblers.

So I don't think it does any good at all, to talk TO THE PUBLIC about the impact on Trader's lives, or abstract financial concepts they do not understand.

What matters to them is their own pocketbood, and when we truly analyze the FTT, it is a massive tax on the consumer, pennies at a time, to each individual. Just think about all the Foreign Trade that needs the Forex system. The costs are going to be passed to the consumer through Wall Mart, etc. Imported foods, wine...anything imported needs the Forex Interbank System to settle the currencies.

To me, if Obama is reelected the FTT could become a real possibility, as mentioned, his second term he will do whatever he wants and we know his historical ideology.

Even if Romney wins this issue will not go away. Because the populists believe truly, emotionally, that this is a way to punish the banks.

The only way to stop this, in my opinion, is to first recognize the populist anger is real. Then we need to show them that a FTT will be paid by main street....because the Wall Street money will simply go somewhere else...leaving only a tax that will trickle down to the consumer.

It is not enough to do this...they also need another direction to direct their energy. Anger is a powerful motivator. There are far better solutions than an FTT.

What I propose is to set up some very focused videos on youtube. We should be able to communicate the basic focused idea, that Main Street is going to pay the FTT, in 30 seconds.

If you remember one of Steve Job's talks about Apple Marketing...he said, even Apple needs to make an extremely focused, tight message because the American public is so distracted in modern life.

Once there are just a few excellent, short, focused videos on youtube, then we can start asking the populist leaders, the populist members, the journalists, congressmen, et cetera, to take a look there.

We create a tight focused message that cuts through the noise.

Thus, I don't believe it does any good at all, and is a waste of energy to talk to the public on the FTT in terms of how a trader sees it. They simply don't care.

Much of this educational material/research already exists:

http://financialtransactiontaxes.com/
.
.
 
I realize a lot of work has gone into that web site....

Yet, who is the audience?

We have about 30 seconds to communicate a non-technical message to the public....

Traders already know the FTT is a bad idea.

The public is for the FTT because they think "Wall Street" is going to pay the tax. There is where the problem is.

Most people are not technical, sad to say. They want a simply slogan, sound byte, an easy concept, or a visceral pleasure (revenge, outlet for anger).

The FTT proponents are giving them that.

I don't think that web site is going to change anyone's mind who is for the FTT. To them it is an emotional issue, not a technical one.

Sorry, just my opinion.
 
Quote from Redshak:

I realize a lot of work has gone into that web site....

Yet, who is the audience?

We have about 30 seconds to communicate a non-technical message to the public....

Traders already know the FTT is a bad idea.

The public is for the FTT because they think "Wall Street" is going to pay the tax. There is where the problem is.

Most people are not technical, sad to say. They want a simply slogan, sound byte, an easy concept, or a visceral pleasure (revenge, outlet for anger).

The FTT proponents are giving them that.

I don't think that web site is going to change anyone's mind who is for the FTT. To them it is an emotional issue, not a technical one.

Sorry, just my opinion.

If you can do better, please go for it. Everybody here will be behind you 100%.
 
Yes, I have a plan to present...but first....here is my reading of Defazio's current bill in the House. Please others chip in if I am not reading it correctly.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr3313/text

These are my initial notes from reading HR 3313 Wall Street Trading and Speculation Tax. I am not an expert at deciphering legal text.

Taxes the following Securities (definition)
Futures
Forex
Stocks
Mutual Funds
Bonds

Transfer of Shares in a Private Corporation or LLC
Financial Transactions dealing with Private Partnerships
Financial Transactions dealing with Private Trusts
All Bank loans
All Private loans

Probably all transactions in the Dark Pools
Probably all Off Exchange Derivatives

Insurance Transactions??

(These off exchange taxation is going to lead
to huge privacy issues)

Round Trip:
It appears that the tax is on both sides of one transaction:
both Buy and Sell

That makes the effective tax rate at .06%
on one (Buy/Sell) Transaction

Who is taxed
All transactions on Exchanges in the USA
It looks like any Securities transaction (definition above) by a US citizen/corporation, whether or not it is on an exchange, whether or not it is transacted inside the USA

Tax Rate: .03% of Market Value
Examples:
Market Amount Value Buy Tax Sell Tax
Forex 1 lot $100,000 $30 $30
Futures 1 contract $100,000 $30 $30
Option 1 option/stock $80 $8,000 $2.40 $2.40
Stock 100 stock $80 $8,000 $2.40 $2.40

(sorry, I am sure this is not going to post cleanly...)
 
Yes, I have a plan to present...but first....here is my reading of Defazio's current bill in the House. Please others chip in if I am not reading it correctly.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr3313/text

These are my initial notes from reading HR 3313 Wall Street Trading and Speculation Tax. I am not an expert at deciphering legal text.

Taxes the following Securities (definition)
Futures
Forex
Stocks
Mutual Funds
Bonds

Transfer of Shares in a Private Corporation or LLC
Financial Transactions dealing with Private Partnerships
Financial Transactions dealing with Private Trusts
All Bank loans
All Private loans

Probably all transactions in the Dark Pools
Probably all Off Exchange Derivatives

Insurance Transactions??

(These off exchange taxation is going to lead
to huge privacy issues)

Round Trip:
It appears that the tax is on both sides of one transaction:
both Buy and Sell

That makes the effective tax rate at .06%
on one (Buy/Sell) Transaction

Who is taxed
All transactions on Exchanges in the USA
It looks like any Securities transaction (definition above) by a US citizen/corporation, whether or not it is on an exchange, whether or not it is transacted inside the USA

Tax Rate: .03% of Market Value
Examples:
Market Amount Value Buy Tax Sell Tax
Forex 1 lot $100,000 $30 $30
Futures 1 contract $100,000 $30 $30
Option 1 option/stock $80 $8,000 $2.40 $2.40
Stock 100 stock $80 $8,000 $2.40 $2.40

(sorry, I am sure this is not going to post cleanly...)
 
OK, here is what I believe will be effective. I am willing to lead this, as a coordinator and top level project manager. It is only a rough outline now, but would be turned into a project, with project management, deadlines, resources, etc.

Before I start I should say that I have been living in South America for some time now and have come to appreciate a slow and steady approach to life, and to projects. I am not going to kill myself doing this, but I can set a project and implement it, and lead a team. Remember, it is the tortoise who won the race, not the rabbit.

Also, I have outlined in general what I think is needed in previous posts. Our goal is not to communicate Trader’s values to the public. It is to show the public they are going to suffer with a FTT.

First, we create a one page website for TRADERS. This website would summarize the FTT and tell them our intention. On this web page ask for future donations of money or talent. We need talents like:

Project Managers
Government Lobby Experience
Web Design
Youtube Video Design and Production
Marketing Psychology, tight focus on audience and message
Someone who can engage those with influence in opposing viewpoint to bring them into conversation, then consideration of simple non technical points concerning the FTT
Journalists (TV, publishing, web), access to professional Journalists
Accounting Support
Legal Advice and Support (LLC Formation)
Tax Support (LLC tax)
General Support
Fund Raiser (asking for corporate donations)

At the same time the correct entity is set up to accomplish our goals.

Then we create a central anchoring video that can state the entire case in 30 seconds.

Essentially this whole story is about “unintended consequences”. We know the intention is to punish the banks, create tax revenue which will be funneled back to Main Street. For many people this is a good intention. But with only a little analysis, it can be seen that this will never happen and many other undesirable consequences for Main Street will be in effect. This is the truth. The other is an fantasy/illusion that gives them an outlet for their anger. In this fantasy Wall Street is punished and they get money. That is not what is going to happen!

So we acknowledge their anger, show them the real consequences (in their context, how it affects them personally), then offer alternative solutions where they can put their energy for change.

Always, simplicity is the best. So there would be perhaps just one or two web pages….with the central theme, and then perhaps with several videos on unintended consequences….such as the InterBank transactions all going overseas, taking jobs with it, just like the manufacturing jobs that are now gone, once these transactions go overseas, there go the financial jobs, never to come back. Then bring this back to the loss of jobs and now there are even more unemployed competing for jobs. I am not making this up….it is a real consequence of an FTT.

Once these videos are established we use them as the central communication tools. We have lobbyists who can interact with lawmakers and we have public relations types who can interact with the populist leaders and journalists. Always referring them back to the videos. Remember, these are short, very focused videos. It is not going to take a person even 15 minutes to get the picture. The first communication would be 30 seconds.

Hopefully some of the Traders who respond might have such lobbying or public relation skills.

As you can see from my previous post (on the reading of the House Bill)….the financial industry has much to lose with a FTT, though, in the end the biggest looser is going to be Main Street. Yet, perhaps some good money can come from the financial industry and enough to accomplish these goals, along with support and effort of Traders.

In the end, we cannot tell the future. Yet neither should we waste energy worrying. Rather we should spend that energy working towards a solution. Fortunately in this case the real solution to the FTT is NO FTT, and this is what is best for Main Street. It also happens to be good for traders.
 
Quote from Redshak:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYtNwmXKIvM&feature=BFa&list=PL54555CBA6164D1A8

To the average person, doesn't is have such immediate, visceral appeal?

Well, that story is a fantasy that the public believes.....this is the problem.

youtube is full of proposals for a FTT, many along these lines

I'd say that is where the conversation is, on Youtube

You seem to have a clear vision of what you want. Are you, or someone you know, capable of making youtube videos? Maybe there are participants on this forum who would be willing/able to help you.
 
Quote from Redshak:

Hello,

Once there are just a few excellent, short, focused videos on youtube, then we can start asking the populist leaders, the populist members, the journalists, congressmen, et cetera, to take a look there.


Hello Redshak and welcome to the Fight against Financial Transaction Taxes.

This thread is designed to ensure our viewpoint gets into the press and directly to our Political Representatives in Washington DC.

We do this by rapidly responding to pro-tax articles whenever & wherever they pop up while ensuring we don't fan the flames on this issue.

Our goal is to get the volume of the talk of this tax down to zero.

We know that the uninformed public will jump at this tax.

Therefore, alerting the groups you mentioned in the snippet I quoted, will only put the FTT idea again into their head at a time (and especially in the next 4 years) when the Government is searching for revenue wherever it is politically least damaging for them to get it.

You'd be surprised at the amount of contacts our group here has in the press. Also, within the industry.

When a new group comes out with talk of an FTT, I, and I'm aware of others here as well, get out our contact lists & ensure our viewpoint makes it into press stories, reader comment sections following stories online, and to contacts in Washington DC. As well as alerting influential members of our industry. You can review this thread & see victories we have had to change the conversation & ensure the idea of an FTT doesn't turn into reality.

I currently have this forum sitting on this retail trader message board for visibility sake. I have had another site set to go for years should our opponents come in here & become disruptive. It can be activated within 30 minutes if necessary. So far, that hasn't been needed & the amount of views on this thread has surpassed 2 million. (Those aren't all retail traders.)

The idea of putting additional videos on youtube sounds fine. Alerting the media and those in Wash DC about the idea of an FTT again, even just through an anti-FTT series of videos, could very easily backfire & bring the visibility of the tax up again.

We will never get rid of the idea of the tax, but, we can snuff out each spark before it ignites into a fire that would engulf us all.

We don't need the majority of society to think as we do about the FTT for our side to win. Victory comes in overwhelming pressure against the tax each time it appears. And yes, it will reappear continously going forward, just as it has done in the past. Each day without the tax is a victory.

Please be careful with raising the volume on the issue with the media & with those in DC. A tremendous amount of work has been done over the past several years to squash the FTT talk. Please don't inadvertently let us lose ground in the fight.

Again, welcome to the thread.
 
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