Zimmerman charged with 2nd degree murder

Quote from trefoil:

I love these guys who come up with this stuff.
Trayvon's murder was already a man who felt himself justified in deciding that he and he alone knew the truth: "These guys always get away" he says. He'd already decided Trayvon was a burglar, obviously, and his mutterings demonstrate a determination to have a confrontation.
Despite that, one says the prosecution doesn't have a case, and the other says it's mob justice. They have zero evidence that Trayvon initiated anything, in the meantime, other than their own hysterical speculations.
But we're the mob.
They've already decided, on the basis of exactly nothing, that it's self-defense.
But we're the mob.
More...

The burden is on the prosecution to prove Zimmerman's guilt of specific actions with specific intent and/or a specific depraved or murderous state of mind. Otherwise it's not murder under the law. Everything has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of 12 who all have to agree. In this case, those are very high hurdles because there's very limited witness and forensic evidence.

I am not saying Zimmerman's innocent or that it was self defense. I am saying there's a big difference between believing something to be true and meeting the evidentiary burden required in a court of law.

Without strong eye witness and/or forensic evidence this is a very difficult case for the prosecutor to win.
 
Quote from tomdavis:

The burden is on the prosecution to prove Zimmerman's guilt of specific actions with specific intent and/or a specific depraved or murderous state of mind. Otherwise it's not murder under the law. Everything has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of 12 who all have to agree. In this case, those are very high hurdles because there's very limited witness and forensic evidence.

I am not saying Zimmerman's innocent or that it was self defense. I am saying there's a big difference between believing something to be true and meeting the evidenciary burden required in a court of law.

Without strong eye witness and/or forensic evidence this is a very difficult case for the prosecutor to win.
More...

I agree. In my opinion the second degree murder charge will be difficult to prove in a court of law with a jury of 12. Manslaughter is a more appropriate charge where the prosecutor is likely to get a conviction in this case.
 
Quote from tomdavis:

The burden is on the prosecution to prove Zimmerman's guilt of specific actions with specific intent and/or a specific depraved or murderous state of mind. Otherwise it's not murder under the law. Everything has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of 12 who all have to agree. In this case, those are very high hurdles because there's very limited witness and forensic evidence.

I am not saying Zimmerman's innocent or that it was self defense. I am saying there's a big difference between believing something to be true and meeting the evidentiary burden required in a court of law.

Without strong eye witness and/or forensic evidence this is a very difficult case for the prosecutor to win.
More...

Yeah but I don't think anyone really thinks she's going for 2nd degree murder. She's setting up for manslaughter. Possibly even a plea bargain.
 
.....The special prosecutor could have taken the case to a grand jury, which might have declined to return an indictment, despite a prosecutor’s celebrated talent for indicting a ham sandwich. The governor no doubt wants a jury, or at least a judge, to make the determination of guilt or innocence. The state must prove that George Zimmerman was motivated by “hatred or ill will,” and his lawyers must prove only that “a preponderance of the evidence” - a lower standard - shows him to have acted in self-defense. One prominent Florida defense lawyer thinks it’s likely, given the weight of the evidence already public, that the judge would dismiss the case when the jury retires to hear the evidence.

Then the circus could resume. The Justice Department is investigating whether the shooting of Trayvon Martin violated federal civil rights laws, and Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. promises that “at every step the facts and the law will guide us forward.” But it’s clear where his hopes and sympathies lie.

Only this week he embraced Al Sharpton at a civil rights convention in Washington, thanking him “for your partnership, your friendship, and your tireless efforts to speak out for the voiceless, to stand up for the powerless.” Only two cheers for the Big Top.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/apr/13/pruden-seeking-justice-at-the-zimmerman-circus/
 
Quote from trefoil:

I love these guys who come up with this stuff.
Trayvon's murder was already a man who felt himself justified in deciding that he and he alone knew the truth: "These guys always get away" he says. He'd already decided Trayvon was a burglar, obviously, and his mutterings demonstrate a determination to have a confrontation.
Despite that, one says the prosecution doesn't have a case, and the other says it's mob justice. They have zero evidence that Trayvon initiated anything, in the meantime, other than their own hysterical speculations.
But we're the mob.
They've already decided, on the basis of exactly nothing, that it's self-defense.
But we're the mob.
More...

I know this won't make any difference to you, but the objective evidence totally supports Zimmerman's account. He called 911 afer all, not the actions of a vigilante. Witnesses have described Martin on top of him beating him. He sustained injuries consistent with that. No one has addressed why Martin didn't simply go home after he had eluded Zimmerman.

The burden is not on Zimmerman to prove that Martin attacked him. It is on the state to prove the contrary, whch seems impossible. Zimmerman only has to prove a reasonable fear of death or serious injury, which seems obvious when someone is on top of you slamming your head into the ground and trying to get your gun.

Sharton and Obama turned this into a racial issue. What else would you call it but mob justice when the governor panicks over race riots and sends in an outside prosecutor to indict someone and turn down the heat? How are people supposed to react when they see a case so weak a noted liberal like Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz mocks it as unethical?
 
Quote from trefoil:

I love these guys who come up with this stuff.
Trayvon's murder was already a man who felt himself justified in deciding that he and he alone knew the truth: "These guys always get away" he says. He'd already decided Trayvon was a burglar, obviously, and his mutterings demonstrate a determination to have a confrontation.
More...

Zimmerman's comment "These assholes always get away" is interesting, because it is actually an indirect condemnation of

1) The Neighborhood Watch effectiveness, or
2) condemnation of police responsiveness.

How long had that N.W. been operational? If there had been burglaries in the area, was the N.W. ineffective at spotting them, or was it effective at spotting crime, but the police too slow to respond, letting the "assholes get away"?

There were also some early reports that Zimmerman's gun was exposed during the assault, and a struggle ensued for it.

If so, how did Zimmerman manage to retain the gun if his head had been banged on the sidewalk and he was beaten so badly? Martin was not the 12-year-old kid the media makes him out to be - he was big and strong, and apparently unfazed because he did not receive a beating from Zimmerman's fists (even according to the undertaker).
According to Zimmerman's own account, he would be in much worse shape than Martin to win the battle for the gun.
 
Quote from MarketMasher:

Zimmerman's comment "These assholes always get away" is interesting, because it is actually an indirect condemnation of

1) The Neighborhood Watch effectiveness, or
2) condemnation of police responsiveness.

How long had that N.W. been operational? If there had been burglaries in the area, was the N.W. ineffective at spotting them, or was it effective at spotting crime, but the police too slow to respond, letting the "assholes get away"?

There were also some early reports that Zimmerman's gun was exposed during the assault, and a struggle ensued for it.

If so, how did Zimmerman manage to retain the gun if his head had been banged on the sidewalk and he was beaten so badly? Martin was not the 12-year-old kid the media makes him out to be - he was big and strong, and apparently unfazed because he did not receive a beating from Zimmerman's fists (even according to the undertaker).
According to Zimmerman's own account, he would be in much worse shape than Martin to win the battle for the gun.
More...

Your little story is full of holes:
The police being ineffective does not give anyone the right to arm himself , go into the public arena and be the law onto himself.
Banging Dimmerman's head on the ground would have required the use of both Trayvon's hands , leaving Dimmerman free use of both his hands and easy access and use of his firearm.
No one said that Trayvon was a 12 yr old.
 
Quote from Spiker:

The police being ineffective does not give anyone the right to arm himself...
More...
No but the second amendment to the constitution does.
 
Pennsylvania Cyclist Ends Teen Robbery Spree
Written by Duncan Mackie on April 6, 2012

Several teenage robbers accosted a Reading, PA senior citizen while he enjoyed a morning bike ride in a public park. Two of the youths knocked him from his bike and demanded money while beating him. The 65-year-old biker pulled his legally carried pistol and shot two robbers, killing one. Police have determined that this was the third robbery the teens committed that morning while they were skipping school. The local district attorney ruled the shootings justified, and that the cyclist had no choice but to shoot in self-defense.



Texas Mother Defends Home and Child
Written by Duncan Mackie on April 6, 2012

A Fort Worth mother came home from picking up her young son at school to find an unwelcome surprise: a man in the act of burglarizing her home. Taking up her legally-owned pistol, she shot the intruder in the leg and put him to flight. She then chased him at gunpoint out of her house and down a nearby street, where she lost him. Responding police found the wounded intruder hiding in a creek not far from the scene. Charges are pending the suspect’s release from hospital.
 
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