Never mentioned first degree murder, premeditated or anything like that. Just doing something stupid, and using a gun. If there were 20 kids carrying off stolen items, I doubt he would have confronted them, being scared to death. But one kid walking home, no problem.
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Zimmerman charged with 2nd degree murder
- Thread starter gwb-trading
- Start date
Never mentioned first degree murder, premeditated or anything like that. Just doing something stupid, and using a gun. If there were 20 kids carrying off stolen items, I doubt he would have confronted them, being scared to death. But one kid walking home, no problem.
Quote from IShopAtPublix:
What I wrote initially was why police and the first prosecutor were blowing the victim's family off. My explanation in the delay of identification is probable lack of id.
The problem with your explanation is that the police identified Trayvon Martin within hours of the shooting. This is evidenced by the police report that was filed at 3:07am in the morning the day after the shooting.
Quote from gwb-trading:
The police report filed at 3:07am in the morning the day after the shooting fully listed all of Trayvon Martin's information. The Sanford police knew immediately who Trayvon was and made no attempt to contact his family.
See the top of page 2 of the police report PDF for Trayvon's full information.
http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Twin-Lakes-Shooting-Initial-Report.pdf
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403
this source says he was tagged as john doe because of lack of identification and next day his father was notified. There was a delay in releasing body to funeral director but that seems reasonable
Quote from gwb-trading:
The police report filed at 3:07am in the morning the day after the shooting fully listed all of Trayvon Martin's information. The Sanford police knew immediately who Trayvon was and made no attempt to contact his family.
See the top of page 2 of the police report PDF for Trayvon's full information.
http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Twin-Lakes-Shooting-Initial-Report.pdf
I really really shouldn't, but there's three questions that immediately pop out at you from that report:
1 - Trayvon being fully id'd, which is what we're talking about here.
2 - The charges at the top. Someone around here posted in one of the earlier threads that Zimmerman had in fact been arrested. So how did he wind up being un-arrested, and so quickly?
3 - Martin's hands were under him. That's odd. Say you're Zimmerman, and you fire up at this guy who's beatin on you while you're on the ground. Somehow you manage to get him off you while getting none of his blood on you, and somehow he lands on the ground as if he fell there face first, whereas if I were pulling some dead weight off me like that I'd imagine the guy might land face up, and either way the arms would be in some random positions, not both underneath. That suggests clutching at the wound while going down. Between that and the no blood on Zimmerman we get back to the question of just where Zimmerman really was when he squeezed off that shot.
But then, as some random fool who's now on ignore said a ways back, I really shouldn't ever serve on a jury.
Quote from trefoil:
I really really shouldn't, but there's three questions that immediately pop out at you from that report:
1 - Trayvon being fully id'd, which is what we're talking about here.
2 - The charges at the top. Someone around here posted in one of the earlier threads that Zimmerman had in fact been arrested. So how did he wind up being un-arrested, and so quickly?
3 - Martin's hands were under him. That's odd. Say you're Zimmerman, and you fire up at this guy who's beatin on you while you're on the ground. Somehow you manage to get him off you while getting none of his blood on you, and somehow he lands on the ground as if he fell there face first, whereas if I were pulling some dead weight off me like that I'd imagine the guy might land face up, and either way the arms would be in some random positions, not both underneath. That suggests clutching at the wound while going down. Between that and the no blood on Zimmerman we get back to the question of just where Zimmerman really was when he squeezed off that shot.
But then, as some random fool who's now on ignore said a ways back, I really shouldn't ever serve on a jury.
They would not id him as male subject if they knew who he was. His name was added later. That is why they went to the father with pictures. At 3am they did NOT know it was treyvon martin.
Quote from IShopAtPublix:
They would not id him as male subject if they knew who he was. His name was added later. That is why they went to the father with pictures. At 3am they did NOT know it was treyvon martin.
...which gets back to one of two choices: either they knew and didn't say, or didn't and later falsified the report.
At the top it says it was completed at 3:07 on 2/27. There is no notation anywhere that an id was added later on.
This ain't someone's hastily written notes: it's an official report of the incident.
Quote from IShopAtPublix:
They would not id him as male subject if they knew who he was. His name was added later. That is why they went to the father with pictures. At 3am they did NOT know it was treyvon martin.
You are making the claim that the Sanford police department illegally altered the police report after the 3:07am filing instead of filing additional amendment documents as required by FBLE regulations. Better call the FBLE to let them know about this... hope you have proof.
Quote from gwb-trading:
I am surprised that the prosecutor charged Zimmerman with second degree murder; manslaughter would have been a more appropriate charge. Traditionally, murder implies that premeditation and deliberation as well as true malice existed in killing the victim. Murder usually requires that an appreciable time pass between the formation and execution of the intent to kill.
Maybe the prosecutor is just leaving wiggle room so the charges can be pleaded down to manslaughter without a trial, or maybe the prosecutor is so caught up in the large scale publicity of the Martin shooting that she wanted to go with the harshest charges possible. I believe that she has an uphill battle ahead of her getting a jury of 12 to convict Zimmerman on 2nd degree murder charges based on the evidence as we know it at this time. Risky to say the least. On the other hand, this prosecutor has a history of liking to roll the dice big in high profile cases. She better hope she finds an eyewitness who has video showing that Zimmerman ran over to Martin, assaulted the teenager first, beat Martin up while the boy cried on the ground, and then pulled out the gun to shoot Martin.
The classic second degree murder case is the "heat of passion" killing or "hot blooded" killing, like a husband unexpectedly finding his wife in bed with another man and killing either or both in a fit of rage. Second degree murder can also be a case where a person through an act or a series of actions sets up a dangerous condition in which the killing occurred, which is the likely prosecution argument against Zimmerman here. Whether or not Zimmerman set up such a condition is a question of fact that a jury will decide. The standard defense against second degree murder is that the killing was justified or excusable as self defense, which Zimmerman will no doubt make in this case.
Complicating the prosecution's case is the Florida statute that does not require a person to retreat before using deadly force to defend himself, the so-called "stand your ground" law. Without this statute, Zimmerman would have had the burden of convincing a jury that he attempted to retreat prior to using deadly force - an apparently tall order in light of the few facts that have come out.
In any event, I think it is a fair result for the case to go to trial given the turmoil in the community. And perhaps it is even best for Zimmerman as well if he is eventually acquitted after his side of the story comes to light. I don't think the prosecution has an easy case, but as the OJ case showed, the selection of the jurors will be paramount to the outcome at trial.
Quote from trefoil:
...which gets back to one of two choices: either they knew and didn't say, or didn't and later falsified the report.
At the top it says it was completed at 3:07 on 2/27. There is no notation anywhere that an id was added later on.
This ain't someone's hastily written notes: it's an official report of the incident.
I would not put much stock into the time stamp. It could mean the initial prepare date and not count any amendments. They would not come to his father with pictures if they knew 100% who he was. Nor would they label him as john doe int he morgue. Reuters article I linked has a nice description of it where it says "Treyvon Martin as John Doe"
Quote from IShopAtPublix:
I would not put much stock into the time stamp. It could mean the initial prepare date and not count any amendments. They would not come to his father with pictures if they knew 100% who he was. Nor would they label him as john doe int he morgue. Reuters article I linked has a nice description of it where it says "Treyvon Martin as John Doe"
First off there's what gwb just said about that, and second, there's a lot of timestamps on that report, not just the one at the top. Ayala's narrative is timestamped 2:28. None of the timestamps are after 3:07.
So, once again, either they knew, or they falsified.