Zen and The Art of Trading

Quote from Flashboy:

Larry,

One more Poker question if you don't mind..

Like I said in an earlier post.. I love to play and I do so on the internet at times..

I play a 5 man max table with $10/$20 limits.. playing small handed I find is a bit more streaky.. and 80% of the times I lose I will start off ahead.. usually get ahead about $200 or so.. which is a good day for me.. I could make $200 3 times a week and be very happy with that..

And I tell myself when I go back to play each time.. okay.. cash in $200 and get out of there.. come back another day.. don't try to break the bank..

But of course I stay and give it back.. because I love to play..

Do you have any ways to help overcome this?? Its basically a discipline problem I feel..
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There are a number of ways to look at this. Uppermost should always be, not whether you are winning or losing, but the "process". (By which I mean, YOUR process-- because it is the process that is going to get things done in the long run, just like in trading). The top players will tell you this is the only consideration. Are you playing well? Are you tired? Do you feel okay? Are you focused? Are you beating the game? Is the game good? (With a lot of players throwing money around, and/or playing poorly)? As long as these things are the case, you should keep playing-- independent of whether you are currently winning or losing.
I have a rule that if it's a good-sized win for the size of the game, I'll bank it. (Say you were up $600 in a $5-$10 game... now that would be a big win for that size game. Usually things only go backwards from that point. Though again, if the game was really good, and that was the reason you were up that much, you ought to keep playing.)
You also say, "you love to play". Now that is another element: you may be doing this partly for recreation. You may be doing this to get your mind off trading. And that is equally legitimate and something else to factor in.

Best,
Larry Phillips
 
Quote from martys:

It is stressful for me but the tolerance gets better overtime with some confidence. This stress (both losing and winning but more when losing) eats up energy and affects performance. That is why I take breaks even though it means missing opportunities. But then again if I lost my focus, even a good winning opportunity can turn into a loss.
I personally monitor how good I feel and how's my luck (any setback?) and stop to take breaks.
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Hm. Interesting responses. I liked Sulong's "when I feel stressful, it's usually when I'm attempting to take in too much information". I'd say that describes me, too. When you go "beyond your resources", when you try to do too much. It also reminds me of the definition of Karma. Most people think karma means, you do bad things and bad stuff happens to you. But it's more like, "going outside the lines", trying to push the envelope too far. And then events (stress, & others) come back to bite you, and operate to bring you back in line again.
Flashboy touches on the same thing. Mentions that he is confident when he stays "within himself" (sorry-- can't think of a better term), on trading.
William mentions monitoring how he feels -- another way of staying "inside the lines" maybe.
I frankly never thought much of the standard methods used to de--stress (never seemed to work that good for me: the 15 minutes of yoga, deep breathing, and all that stuff, etc.) It just always felt like a "band-aid" over a bigger problem. Some larger, more organic solution seems to be called for.

Best,
--Larry Phillips
 
Quote from Larry Phillips:

Hm. Interesting responses. I liked Sulong's "when I feel stressful, it's usually when I'm attempting to take in too much information". I'd say that describes me, too. When you go "beyond your resources", when you try to do too much. It also reminds me of the definition of Karma. Most people think karma means, you do bad things and bad stuff happens to you. But it's more like, "going outside the lines", trying to push the envelope too far. And then events (stress, & others) come back to bite you, and operate to bring you back in line again.
Flashboy touches on the same thing. Mentions that he is confident when he stays "within himself" (sorry-- can't think of a better term), on trading.
William mentions monitoring how he feels -- another way of staying "inside the lines" maybe.
I frankly never thought much of the standard methods used to de--stress (never seemed to work that good for me: the 15 minutes of yoga, deep breathing, and all that stuff, etc.) It just always felt like a "band-aid" over a bigger problem. Some larger, more organic solution seems to be called for.

Best,
--Larry Phillips
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Hi Larry,

It is hopeless and hopeful at the same time. I think the traditional method only works after we give it time. I am just gonna talk like a parrot here. This whole visions of samsara (cyclic existence) are held by tensions. Buddhists claim that it took countless lifetimes of habits in clinging to solidity of our experiences and the self. When one of my teachers explained how this whole impure visions come about, he gave an example: "It's like the stock market." Concepts upon concepts... (You mentioned information overload) I think the traditional method works but only over a long time and a lot of repetitions in order to give the mind true opportunities to really settle down and glimpse at itself. Without RE-cognize this innate nature, the source of stress (conceptual mind breaks things up) are not cut but only temporarily pacified.

Regarding karma, subtle imprints are left in the consciousness and the payday can be far far far into the future (rarely it happens in the same lifetime unless it is really strong). I got a mind-blowing explaination from one of my teachers. When someone asked him, "If it is all like a dream, what is this place? Are you real?"
His answer was: "When your wisdom begins to awaken, your consciousness will dream that you go to places, meet teachers and receive teachings." In a way it is not absurd, we really do conceptualize things our way. :confused:
 
On a more practical note, I play some "Mozart Effect" music CD while trading which claims to release stress and increase my IQ... didn't feel any smarter. Sometimes it gets so annoying (when I am losing), I turn it off. Sometimes it makes me doze off when the market moves in 3 ticks range. :D
 
Quote from martys:

On a more practical note, I play some "Mozart Effect" music CD while trading which claims to release stress and increase my IQ... didn't feel any smarter. Sometimes it gets so annoying (when I am losing), I turn it off. Sometimes it makes me doze off when the market moves in 3 ticks range. :D
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Hey... that mozart stuff is supposed to give those benefits to unborn babies.... I hope you are not a baby when you trade. :p
 
Quote from FuturesTrader71:

Hey... that mozart stuff is supposed to give those benefits to unborn babies.... I hope you are not a baby when you trade. :p
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Yes, I got those for my son and they have versions for special adult like me. :D
 
Quote from martys:

Hi Larry,

It is hopeless and hopeful at the same time. I think the traditional method only works after we give it time. I am just gonna talk like a parrot here. This whole visions of samsara (cyclic existence) are held by tensions. Buddhists claim that it took countless lifetimes of habits in clinging to solidity of our experiences and the self. When one of my teachers explained how this whole impure visions come about, he gave an example: "It's like the stock market." Concepts upon concepts... (You mentioned information overload) I think the traditional method works but only over a long time and a lot of repetitions in order to give the mind true opportunities to really settle down and glimpse at itself. Without RE-cognize this innate nature, the source of stress (conceptual mind breaks things up) are not cut but only temporarily pacified.

Regarding karma, subtle imprints are left in the consciousness and the payday can be far far far into the future (rarely it happens in the same lifetime unless it is really strong). I got a mind-blowing explaination from one of my teachers. When someone asked him, "If it is all like a dream, what is this place? Are you real?"
His answer was: "When your wisdom begins to awaken, your consciousness will dream that you go to places, meet teachers and receive teachings." In a way it is not absurd, we really do conceptualize things our way. :confused:
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Hi William--
You probably know more about the subject at this point than I do-- I read it all, the whole shinola, but it was some time ago now. (I was going to mention, anybody who wants to read about practical uses of Buddhism, should pick up a copy of basketball coach Phil Jackson's book, "Sacred Hoops". Here's a guy who uses aspects of Buddhism as applied to the "real world", and does it successfully (many world championships)-- and he's also good at explaining it-- though not even Buddhism is apparently strong enough and wise enough to overcome some great and tragic events in life (Shaq Vs. Kobe). {sniff}
:D
As for "life" (a big subject), if not a dream, then it is at least certainly dreamlike. How else to explain fragments and memories mixed together from all the years-- a cinematic trip from cutting out cardboard designs in grade school, finding yourself over-served at the College Kegger at age 22, and then being handed a gold watch for being with the company 50 years? All of it a blur, all of it speeding by, jumbled together in memory, and all of it (most remarkable of all) taking place mainly in our heads?
As for Karma, I tend to disagree-- most karma tends to come back on people in this lifetime (generally, probability)-- (though never quick enough to satisfy us onlookers). Life seems bookended by just barely enough time for the bad stuff to catch up with the bad guys.



:D
Anyways... Happy new year (and prosperous year) to all the traders and poker players out there--
Larry Phillips
 
Hi Larry,

It is hard to apply Buddhism as "intended", I look at myself as a failed Buddhist but I've heard enough to never look down at my own potential or anyone else's.
I agree with you when you do good things, your whole body chemistry changes and you can reap rewards right away. When you do bad thing, you are narrowing your mind into something it is not and causes all kinds of imbalance. I was just babbling what I heard as a lazy Buddhist. I think the scriptural definition of "karma" is pointing to something more subtle than its conventional meaning of "cause-and-effect".

Thanks for all your great insights (which I still reread) and the book recommendation. HAPPY NEW YEAR!

:p

Regards,
William
 
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