Wages are property.
I think the founding fathers, having known about the British tax system, had more than a passing familiarity with unfairness in tax systems.
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Youre All Morons
- Thread starter omegapoint
- Start date
Wages are property.
I think the founding fathers, having known about the British tax system, had more than a passing familiarity with unfairness in tax systems.
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
Exactly. Apparently dave is not aware that the Founding Fathers wrote a constitution that specifically prohibited a graduated income tax or any income tax at all for that matter. That's why it was necessary to have an amendment to allow it. The people who naively ratified the amendment were assured it would never be more than low single digits. They were probably also assured only the rich would pay it.
And it was to be temporary..... Here is a question for the ACLU lovers. Why don't they fight the income tax on the basis that it involves invasion of privacy? Here, I too can help in these matters: The ACLU does not.......
Quote from Fractals 'R Us:
And it was to be temporary.....
The income tax was to be temporary, but other taxes have always been around and were actively supported by the founding fathers. For example, Adams wrote "Property monopolized or in the possession of a few is a curse to mankind. We should preserve not an absolutely equality -- this is unnecessary, but preserve all from extreme poverty and all others from extravagant riches."
Here is a question for the ACLU lovers. Why don't they fight the income tax on the basis that it involves invasion of privacy? Here, I too can help in these matters: The ACLU does not.......
The ACLU has, and does. For example:
"ACLU Letter to the IRS Expressing Concerns about Revenue Ruling 2004-6 with Regard to Political Speech and the Definition of What Is or Is Not an "Exempt Function" (1/26/2004)"
http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/gen/10973leg20040126.html
Quote from bigdavediode:
Well that would disagree with the founding father's views, specifically Jefferson's views, that taxation should be graduated with the rich paying a higher percentage.
"Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1785.
So I ask you Cuz, AAA, and any others -- why was Jefferson wrong?
jefferson was wrong because back then there was a qualification on voting. Many if not all states restricted the vote to men with property.
So Jefferson may have been saying that the people with the land make the rules and run the gov't so they ought to pay for it with a graduated tax. (that tax may have even been a property tax)
If he were discussing a property tax his statement would be even more obvious. Local gov'ts and states tax property and it is the local govt and states which provide the services which most directly effect that property.
Shouldn't a property that makes up 3/4 of the county pay more than a property with a few apple trees.
Quote from jem:
jefferson was wrong because back then there was a qualification on voting. Many if not all states restricted the vote to men with property.
So Jefferson may have been saying that the people with the land make the rules and run the gov't so they ought to pay for it with a graduated tax. (that tax may have even been a property tax)
Well if you check Adams, above, ""Property monopolized or in the possession of a few is a curse to mankind. We should preserve not an absolutely equality -- this is unnecessary, but preserve all from extreme poverty and all others from extravagant riches."
Notice how Adams doesn't say preserve the rich from owning too much property, but having "extravagant riches."
If he were discussing a property tax his statement would be even more obvious. Local gov'ts and states tax property and it is the local govt and states which provide the services which most directly effect that property.
Shouldn't a property that makes up 3/4 of the county pay more than a property with a few apple trees.
Well these debates were among the Federalists.
I just made the argument - I am not even sure that Jefferson was wrong.
I am gainst any income taxes and I am particularly against taxing more that 20% of a persons income. I find current rates to by tantamount slavery for a single guy without a house.
However, now I have have 3 kids and had big interest deductions until this year. I had a low tax rate last year after all our deductions. Yea baby.
So screw single guys like Pabst who trade better than I, let them pay all the taxes and give me and my kids some free health care and great schools.
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In reality I would like to see the U.S. experiment with a flat tax. If revenues come up short big deal. They print money like crazy anyway.
I am gainst any income taxes and I am particularly against taxing more that 20% of a persons income. I find current rates to by tantamount slavery for a single guy without a house.
However, now I have have 3 kids and had big interest deductions until this year. I had a low tax rate last year after all our deductions. Yea baby.
So screw single guys like Pabst who trade better than I, let them pay all the taxes and give me and my kids some free health care and great schools.
-----
In reality I would like to see the U.S. experiment with a flat tax. If revenues come up short big deal. They print money like crazy anyway.
Quote from jem:
I just made the argument - I am not even sure that Jefferson was wrong.
I am gainst any income taxes and I am particularly against taxing more that 20% of a persons income. I find current rates to by tantamount slavery for a single guy without a house.
However, now I have have 3 kids and had big interest deductions until this year. I had a low tax rate last year after all our deductions. Yea baby.
So screw single guys like Pabst who trade better than I, let them pay all the taxes and give me and my kids some free health care and great schools.
You and Pabst live in Canada?
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In reality I would like to see the U.S. experiment with a flat tax. If revenues come up short big deal. They print money like crazy anyway.
Well that's very nice of you. You should tell your children that you'll be saddling them with the debt for your lifestyle when they're old enough to understand.
Quote from jem:
I have no idea what your responses mean.
I implicitly suggested a flat tax could be more fair and more rational.
And I'm pointing out that the founding fathers explicitly addressed this argument and found a flat tax lacking and they considered it unfair.
Personally I oppose a flat tax because it's wildly fiscally unsound. But I find it interesting that the founding fathers rejected it in favor of a fairer graduated tax system, where the poor pay nothing and the rich pay a higher proportion.
If Jefferson were alive today, he'd think we're all dipshits for putting up with the Democrats or Republicans, living under a system where we pay sales taxes, income taxes, payroll taxes, license and permit taxes (e.g. house permit), property taxes (absolutely insane), taxes on personal property, taxes on energy use, telecommunications taxes, single business taxes, & DEATH TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Keep voting Democratic, while complaining about how bad things are.
Keep voting Republican, while complaining how bad things are.
You're part of the problem if you do either.
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAKE UP!!!!!!!
Keep voting Democratic, while complaining about how bad things are.
Keep voting Republican, while complaining how bad things are.
You're part of the problem if you do either.
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAKE UP!!!!!!!