Your War Policy Please...Draw You Plans
- Thread starter canyonman00
- Start date
Good point - the U.S. is the perfect symbol of wealth and power to be villified and blamed by the poor of the world. The UN is a great example.
however one could argue that hatred by the world's poor is vast enough to be shared by other countries nearly as wealthy, other people living as well as Americans do - Japan, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Norway, for example - granted none of them have Hollywood-level means to globally flaunt and parade their wealth, but it seems they would be at least a bit disliked. Instead, only one country is universally hated, and as far as I know, there are no Japanese flags routinely burned in Middle Eastern streets.
This suggests that it's about more than just wealth, but your point is still very true.
Ok, two points. First, if we handle the matter as we did in Afghanistan Sadam will be wandering around and we'll have no clue where he is or if he is dead. So we can't handle it the same way.
Second, in telling me that you're a corn-fed yankee, you allow me to provide a relevant argument to your position. In this instance, you would have several Arab and Russian holdouts to your position just based on the fact that their thinking you a gun-weilding-cowboy-American type. Maybe even a republican, who just wants to steal oil.
You have no understanding of the Arab world and the wrongs that America has caused in putting Sadam in power in the first place. No that he has not bowed to your wishes, you want to put in another patsy. Your response.
so quality leaders in the middle east is what we need, how do we foster such an enviornment? easier said then done lest we be accusued of an american brand of imperialism, but i think the afghan model foreshadows what nation building of the 21st century might look like. topple your favorite dictator/tyrant, iclude indigenous peoples as the lead force, and set up free elections, while providing peacekeeping forces for ongoing stability. for the most part it HAS worked in afghan, and this should be the blueprint moving forward with some improvements. i.e. we cant allow opposiotion forces to committ autraucities against rival factions, i.e liek the northern alliance. more suppervision is needed with these war by proxies.
So with all that said, give me your plan of attack/operations. I'm not looking for perfection, just credible ideas.
Because?
Knowing this, YOUR plan of proceeding would be laid out how?
Let's illuminate the policy in effect now first.
You must understand that the objective of the Bush war objective: gain leverage on the Persian gulf oil. because it is oil costs that can swing the Western economies in and out of recession. And of more timely urgency, it is petrol dollars that are funding al-queda. Saddam is Bush's cassus belli, his invitation to the oil party. Saddam is the unreasonable and dumb prick who has given Bush and his boys (Oilmen) the excuse to go in guns-a-blazing and establish a major physical presence and military control over a vast reserve of oil. This would in effect give the US a major seat at the OPEC roundtable. A victory in iraq could result in much lower oil prices, thereby retaining wealth in Western economies where it sorely needed, and pinch Arab funding of Muslim extremists.
The Iraqi War of 2002 began weeks ago gentleman. THe US and Britain have been methodically destroying Iraq air defense and outer command and control centers, and have been conducting commando raids in the north.
The arguments at the UN against US unilateralism on this issue are a mask for the real issue among the world's powers: how to divvy up the spoils of victory. And to make sure that the Russians, French, and German investment in Iraq and Iran remains protected. kofi annan is undergoing hyperventilating ego-exercises in what is a dog and pony show. He is irrelevant.
The US military presence will stir up further discontent among the radicals in the Middle East. But the Arab and Persian ruling elites will strike a deal with the US, and certainly with the Europeans and Russian after they follow in on Bush's coattails. This could also help reduce tension emanating from the perpetual Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
And now that al-queda is blasting away at French tankers and blowing up 20 year old Australians at far flung beach resorts, world sentiment against Muslim extremism will rise and find its way into the US camp.
If all goes to plan the results:
1) A madman out of power in a convulsive arena
2) lower oil prices and attendant economic benefit.
3) reduction in regional support of al-queda and Muslim extremists.
4) greater alignment among middle east countries with the West.
If all goes wrong: something short of WWIII.
Have a pleasant day and trade well.
You must understand that the objective of the Bush war objective: gain leverage on the Persian gulf oil. because it is oil costs that can swing the Western economies in and out of recession. And of more timely urgency, it is petrol dollars that are funding al-queda. Saddam is Bush's cassus belli, his invitation to the oil party. Saddam is the unreasonable and dumb prick who has given Bush and his boys (Oilmen) the excuse to go in guns-a-blazing and establish a major physical presence and military control over a vast reserve of oil. This would in effect give the US a major seat at the OPEC roundtable. A victory in iraq could result in much lower oil prices, thereby retaining wealth in Western economies where it sorely needed, and pinch Arab funding of Muslim extremists.
The Iraqi War of 2002 began weeks ago gentleman. THe US and Britain have been methodically destroying Iraq air defense and outer command and control centers, and have been conducting commando raids in the north.
The arguments at the UN against US unilateralism on this issue are a mask for the real issue among the world's powers: how to divvy up the spoils of victory. And to make sure that the Russians, French, and German investment in Iraq and Iran remains protected. kofi annan is undergoing hyperventilating ego-exercises in what is a dog and pony show. He is irrelevant.
The US military presence will stir up further discontent among the radicals in the Middle East. But the Arab and Persian ruling elites will strike a deal with the US, and certainly with the Europeans and Russian after they follow in on Bush's coattails. This could also help reduce tension emanating from the perpetual Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
And now that al-queda is blasting away at French tankers and blowing up 20 year old Australians at far flung beach resorts, world sentiment against Muslim extremism will rise and find its way into the US camp.
If all goes to plan the results:
1) A madman out of power in a convulsive arena
2) lower oil prices and attendant economic benefit.
3) reduction in regional support of al-queda and Muslim extremists.
4) greater alignment among middle east countries with the West.
If all goes wrong: something short of WWIII.
Have a pleasant day and trade well.
OK.... canyonman wants an immediate solution. No one (but Mondo and his big guns), seems to know how to deal with the issue immediately. Seems we all agree that more planning needs to be done, options explored, and strategies developed. We all seem to be too smart to suggest that we know without doubt how to approach the issue NOW. (except Mondo and his big guns).
But since I believe Canyonman wants an academic answer despite our inability to come up with anything foolproof (except Mondo and his big guns), let me make a suggestion. It may not work, but it couldn't hurt. I see no downside whatsoever.
We get Bush and Saddam in a room together with black lights and day-glow Grateful Dead posters; dose 'em both with major amounts of LSD, give 'em a good sound system and a vast library of music, a chessboard, some beads, candles, and maybe a sitar, and lock the door on them for the duration. No weapons, only robes and pillows allowed. Padded walls maybe. Let 'em out after 30 hours, and see what they have worked out.
Peace
rs7
But since I believe Canyonman wants an academic answer despite our inability to come up with anything foolproof (except Mondo and his big guns), let me make a suggestion. It may not work, but it couldn't hurt. I see no downside whatsoever.
We get Bush and Saddam in a room together with black lights and day-glow Grateful Dead posters; dose 'em both with major amounts of LSD, give 'em a good sound system and a vast library of music, a chessboard, some beads, candles, and maybe a sitar, and lock the door on them for the duration. No weapons, only robes and pillows allowed. Padded walls maybe. Let 'em out after 30 hours, and see what they have worked out.
Peace
rs7Originally posted by rs7
We get Bush and Saddam in a room together with black lights and day-glow Grateful Dead posters; dose 'em both with major amounts of LSD, give 'em a good sound system and a vast library of music, a chessboard, some beads, candles, and maybe a sitar, and lock the door on them for the duration. No weapons, only robes and pillows allowed. Padded walls maybe. Let 'em out after 30 hours, and see what they have worked out.
Peace
*****************
LOL...excellent idea...If I remember correctly, the Army did extensive testing on LSD some 50 years ago and actually dosed many of the soldiers at that time to discern the psychological changes and how it would enhance or diminish their cognitive skills...Somehow it made its way into the mainstream public in the 1960's and changed this world forever...
Originally posted by canyonman00
Ok, two points. First, if we handle the matter as we did in Afghanistan Sadam will be wandering around and we'll have no clue where he is or if he is dead. So we can't handle it the same
way.
1) i dont care where sadam ends up since it is unlikey we will catch him anyway, and i am sure the coward will flee long before he has the chance of being caught. so for all i care he can wander the desert and die, but in any event by the time my kids are older he will be long gone regardless. (although tyrant dictators do have a habit of lingering on until they are 100 right)
Second, in telling me that you're a corn-fed yankee, you allow me to provide a relevant argument to your position. In this instance, you would have several Arab and Russian holdouts to your position just based on the fact that their thinking you a gun-weilding-cowboy-American type. Maybe even a republican, who just wants to steal oil.
2) i dont realy see where race is of any relevance to his forum, sure maybe in real life it has soem influence, but if this is the case why wasnt powell any more effective in the middle east then anyone else of any race, save jesse or ali, so yeah i think you do have a point but not relevant in this discussion. that is why i chose to poke fun at it if you didnt catch my fesiciousness the first time. no offense to powell either there b/c i think he is one of the best statesman/diplomats EVER period. condi rice is awesome too.
and another thing a russian would prob. more likely side with the west at this point anyway so i disagree with you. (some of these characters like bin laden/sadam are trying to regress back centuries to when it was east vs. west)
and this was probably a loaded issue i walked into so fine, you can post away and take me down.
You have no understanding of the Arab world and the wrongs that America has caused in putting Sadam in power in the first place. No that he has not bowed to your wishes, you want to put in another patsy. Your response.
3) nobody ever said american policies have been perfect, but it must be easy for the rest of the world, and others like mr. canyon, whose policy is: see what america does first, then critique it and second guess it. its tougher and takes more courage to lead but is much easier to criticize and play monday morning QB.
Do i want a patsy, no. if you read my posts i am calling for democratically elected officials elected by the people of iraq! if they voted sadam in, so be it.
4) as far as the poke that i dont know anything about Arab world, i know more than most, and i think pro-arab might not like some of my views b/c the truth can hurt!
However part of the problem is the average american only knows what they see on CNN, i.e 9/11. and vice versa average arabs only know what they are told by al jazeera, bin laden, and dictator controlled media/propoganda in some cases. that def. needs improving.
but my point also still stands, the middle east needs better leaders, and how are we going to do it? by following and improving on the afghan model. its not perfect but its the best we have.
what is your policy canyon?