go ahead onions let me have it..its ok, I deserve it. I once vowed to not post what I did not know about...and I broke my rule..
You guys who do VOLUME, why so much?
- Thread starter yeayo
- Start date
Glad you feel "this thread is actually one of the more intelligent conversations". I agree, but don't agree with "that aint saying much... " . This thread would be even better and more complete if we could get this trader himself to speak up and explain why he does it his way. <BR>I find a number of these threads to be very good, but of course not a high percentage and not all the posts in them. I appreciate the ones that are good.
onions, you should maybe start your own super "intelligent" thread full of "intelligent" posts. 2 posts? If you don't contribute maybe you shouldn't rag on the other people. Everyone has their own level of experience. oops... looks like i hurt some feelings... sorry guys. go back to your conversation. if this thread can help you trade then i apologize.....
To all you guys who trade hundreds of thousands of shares a day, why?:
If you lose money its no suprise, you're paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in commisions and fees a year.
If you make money and good money, its still not even worth it considering the enourmous amount of risk and expenses you're taking on.
I am pretty sure this was the start of the thread. IF YOU MAKE MONEY AND GOOD MONEY, ITS STILL NOT WORTH IT...
So if i trade 3 mill shares a month, make north of 250K it still isn't worth it because i took risk and paid a lot in commissions and expenses. Yes, you guys are right, this thread really is worth all the smart and witty replies...
To all you guys who trade hundreds of thousands of shares a day, why?:
If you lose money its no suprise, you're paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in commisions and fees a year.
If you make money and good money, its still not even worth it considering the enourmous amount of risk and expenses you're taking on.
I am pretty sure this was the start of the thread. IF YOU MAKE MONEY AND GOOD MONEY, ITS STILL NOT WORTH IT...
So if i trade 3 mill shares a month, make north of 250K it still isn't worth it because i took risk and paid a lot in commissions and expenses. Yes, you guys are right, this thread really is worth all the smart and witty replies...
Dude.. what the f*** are you talking about?
I question some of the logic and experience of the recent posts.
No one yet has mentioned how pyschologically difficult IT REALLY IS to "give yourself" more money simply by increasing size. This is such a fallacy it's actually funny that people believe this.
This issue is completely pyschological. Trust me, it doesn't matter how much size you trade - the pyschological constraints you impose on yourself dictate how much you can give yourself in any given day whether you trade 100k or 10k per day.
A majority of my intraday and "swing" account action is usally under 10k shares. I occasionally have 20-30k share days as well but I have to change my comfort zones concerning risk and fear. This is hard. It does matter more when I have a 1000 share trade that moves against me rather than a 100 or 300 share trade. I've increased my risk and therefore my discomfort increases. Being a stupid human with emotion I will have to force myself to ignore the discomfort. Simple RIGHT??
I am working to alter my mentality so as to accept greater risk and not freak out when a larger size winner retraces and I essentially give back a significant portion of an unrealized gain. It is much harder to let a winner run when you've moved away from your comfort zone to quickly. It takes time IMO to alter those comfort levels. What is NOT THE ANSWER is doubling or tripling your size after a few winning months or weeks.
No one yet has mentioned how pyschologically difficult IT REALLY IS to "give yourself" more money simply by increasing size. This is such a fallacy it's actually funny that people believe this.
This issue is completely pyschological. Trust me, it doesn't matter how much size you trade - the pyschological constraints you impose on yourself dictate how much you can give yourself in any given day whether you trade 100k or 10k per day.
A majority of my intraday and "swing" account action is usally under 10k shares. I occasionally have 20-30k share days as well but I have to change my comfort zones concerning risk and fear. This is hard. It does matter more when I have a 1000 share trade that moves against me rather than a 100 or 300 share trade. I've increased my risk and therefore my discomfort increases. Being a stupid human with emotion I will have to force myself to ignore the discomfort. Simple RIGHT??
I am working to alter my mentality so as to accept greater risk and not freak out when a larger size winner retraces and I essentially give back a significant portion of an unrealized gain. It is much harder to let a winner run when you've moved away from your comfort zone to quickly. It takes time IMO to alter those comfort levels. What is NOT THE ANSWER is doubling or tripling your size after a few winning months or weeks.
Quote from Mike805:
I question some of the logic and experience of the recent posts.
No one yet has mentioned how psychologically difficult IT REALLY IS to "give yourself" more money simply by increasing size. This is such a fallacy it's actually funny that people believe this.
This issue is completely psychological. Trust me, it doesn't matter how much size you trade - the psychological constraints you impose on yourself dictate how much you can give yourself in any given day whether you trade 100k or 10k per day.
A majority of my intraday and "swing" account action is usually under 10k shares. I occasionally have 20-30k share days as well but I have to change my comfort zones concerning risk and fear. This is hard. It does matter more when I have a 1000 share trade that moves against me rather than a 100 or 300 share trade. I've increased my risk and therefore my discomfort increases. Being a stupid human with emotion I will have to force myself to ignore the discomfort. Simple RIGHT??
I am working to alter my mentality so as to accept greater risk and not freak out when a larger size winner retraces and I essentially give back a significant portion of an unrealized gain. It is much harder to let a winner run when you've moved away from your comfort zone to quickly. It takes time IMO to alter those comfort levels. What is NOT THE ANSWER is doubling or tripling your size after a few winning months or weeks.
I fully agree with you, it does take time to increase your psychological capacity for accepting risk.
I think it also depends on what kind of trader you are. Are you the managing type of trader who puts on 30-40 positions with 100 share lots? Or are you the aggressive type of trader who is only in 1-3 positions at a time and really hitting those few moves with size? For me it was a huge psychological barrier to break from doing 800-1500 share positions to trading 2-4k positions. I would personally like to hear how this guy makes $100-200k a year doing 100 share lots, cause if it works then I"ll do it with 1k lots and make 10 times the money that guy does ...now would you consider that to be worth taking the extra risk?
Hell yeah it's worth it! If you've proveds your strategy to yourself what's holding you back from fully putting your money where your beliefs are? It's the exact same trade you were gonna catch with 100 shares, your just doing it with 1k.
And honestly it was the psychological barrier of trusting in my own conviction for a trade. See, I don't look at the dollar value of how much I am out of the money, but rather I look at and feel pain by how far away the market for the stock moves from my avg price. I'm looking at in terms of: "I'm out of the money $.25 cents on my position," rather than "I'm out of the money $1000 on the trade." By doing this, taking a 1k position is no different in my mind than taking a 3k position. If I'm wrong I'll admit it and flip my position or just get out ...hey it happens, no one is perfect. (except for Little K at our firm:eek: ) I just try to not let emotion ($ fluctuations) get involved....almost trade like a robot or a computer program and get in and get out and then move on mentally to the next thing coming my way in the market. I'm not saying it's easy ...it's hard as hell to change something so internally engrained in ourselves, but that's just the way I try to overcome it.
And really you have only increased your risk by taking more size if you can't get out of your position. If you are talking about a stock that trades 5-10million shares a day you shouldn't be worrying about getting out of a tiny 300 share position. You are catching the exact same move but in stead of doing it with 300 shares do it with 1k or if you normally do it with 1k try it with 2k. Therefore turning a half point move from $150 to $500, or $500 into $1000 respectively.
But I also agree with you on the reasons for beginning to size up. You shouldn't just size up because you've been hitting it good the last few weeks, but rather size up when you feel psychologically you can handle it. You begin to feel more confident in your trading strategy by putting together a streak of winning days, and that does help you emotionally calm down, but just know that you are playing on a bigger ball field when you start sizing up and realize the squeezes are gonna feel worse if you keep focusing on the $ amount you are in/out of the money rather than if you are in and get out of the trade for the right reasons. However the move is the same move you would have caught with your 100 shares, but this time you just did it with more size.
For me, I'd rather be focused on a few stocks throughout the day and really understand what's going on in them. That makes me feel more comfortable to take bigger size when I know what's really going on in a stock, and I have more conviction in my trades. This enables me to accept more risk and make my conviction count for more money on the trade by taking the bigger size.
I was thinking more about your post here last night and wondered if you're saying you yourself built a position of 100,000 shares @ 11 average and sold them @ 28 average? Unless my math's screwed up this would mean you acquired a $1.1 million dollar position and then made $1.7 million dollars on the trades. Am I misunderstanding you? And also was curious where the other post with the example of this is? Thanks.
i used to have psychological issues where trading big was concerned. i was a 1,000 share lot tradin' desperado during the bubble with success. unfortunately, however, i was routinely getting my ass handed to me when i came back to the biz last year trading 1,000's cuz i wasn't able to nail my entries properly. once i reduced my size, i immediately became more profitable. over the months, i did allow myself to become a little too comfortable with the 100's, and couldn't size up. sometimes, when i'd accidently buy 200 shares instead of one, i'd literally panic and scramble to sell that extra hundred.. even if it was a just a $20 stock. i realized i had to continue tweaking my style to work my way out of it, and have finally settled on this sorta Poor Man's, quasi-pairs trading strategy i've concocted. i myself have been a little baffled by how easy it's been to extract money everyday. only problem now is, margin.
someone asked me this same question in the blotter thread, and i just explained that my core, bread & butter stocks that work in my cookie cutter system just happen to be the expensive, rangy stocks that aren't necessarily optimal for an $85,000 retail account. i keep this spreadsheet on my desktop, and plug in the amounts i own as i buy and sell throughout the day..
i'll buy and sell the long brokers, diamonds, and Q's, while i short and cover SPY and LEH all day long.. however, at the end of the day, my overnights must be in this exact mix (or more of the shorts, and less longs if i'm bearish tomorrow's open). if i'm over that $170k, 2:1 total my margin allows, i'll have $0 buying power the next day, and my office manager will have to call the trade desk in NY to unfreeze my account. it's a pain in the ass, and i usually miss the open. if i'm long say 500 BSC at 3:58, and it's underwater, i'd be forced to sell it, or something else at a loss, or cover a short which may leave me under-hedged if we gap down big the next morning. to avoid that situation, i basically have to keep my positions at pre-calculated ratios. if i had more overnight leverage, i'd be more comfortable slinging volume intraday. the broker/dealer stocks have been an obsession of mine, and i've been studying them to the point in which i know what they're gonna do practically down to the tick. and, i can scalp 500-1,000 lot Q's in my sleep.
i live in a sweet part of north jersey that has almost every major prop firm within 20 minutes of my house. only problem is, i don't have my series 7.. which i'm working on. once i become licensed in a month or two, i'll be ready to get busy. i'll have no problem doubling up, or even tripling to $350k or $500K a night. all of my stocks will take the 300 or 400 lot orders just as easily as the 100's now. so hopefully, if the specialists don't get funky, and start moving them differently between now and then, i'll start approaching lescor/mschey/mnx/Diamondtrim-type dough.
There you have it.Quote from SammySOESa:
i used to have psychological issues where trading big was concerned. i was a 1,000 share lot tradin' desperado during the bubble with success. unfortunately, however, i was routinely getting my ass handed to me when i came back to the biz last year trading 1,000's cuz i wasn't able to nail my entries properly. once i reduced my size, i immediately became more profitable. over the months, i did allow myself to become a little too comfortable with the 100's, and couldn't size up. sometimes, when i'd accidently buy 200 shares instead of one, i'd literally panic and scramble to sell that extra hundred.. even if it was a just a $20 stock. i realized i had to continue tweaking my style to work my way out of it, and have finally settled on this sorta Poor Man's, quasi-pairs trading strategy i've concocted. i myself have been a little baffled by how easy it's been to extract money everyday. only problem now is, margin.
someone asked me this same question in the blotter thread, and i just explained that my core, bread & butter stocks that work in my cookie cutter system just happen to be the expensive, rangy stocks that aren't necessarily optimal for an $85,000 retail account. i keep this spreadsheet on my desktop, and plug in the amounts own as i buy and sell throughout the day..
i'll buy and sell the long brokers, diamonds, and Q's, while i short and cover SPY and LEH all day long.. however, at the end of the day, my overnights must be in this exact mix (or more of the shorts, and less longs if i'm bearish tomorrow's open). if i'm over that $170k, 2:1 total my margin allows, i'll have $0 buying power the next day, and my office manager will have to call the trade desk in NY to unfreeze my account. it's a pain in the ass, and i usually miss the open. if i'm long say 500 BSC at 3:58, and it's underwater, i'd be forced to sell it, or something else at a loss, or cover a short which may leave me under-hedged if we gap down big the next morning. to avoid that situation, i basically have to keep my positions at pre-calculated ratios to avoid that problem. if i had more overnight leverage, i'd be more comfortable slinging volume intraday. the broker/dealer stocks have been an obsession of mine, and i've been studying them to the point in which i know what they're gonna do practically down to the tick. and, i can scalp 500-1,000 lot Q's in my sleep.
i live in a sweet part of north jersey that has almost every major prop firm within 20 minutes of my house. only problem is, i don't have my series 7.. which i'm working on. once i become licensed in a month or two, i'll be ready to get busy. i'll have no problem doubling up, or even tripling to $350k or $500K a night. all of my stocks will take the 300 or 400 lot orders just as easily as the 100's now. so hopefully, if the specialists don't get funky, and start moving them differently between now and then, i'll start approaching lescor/mschey/mnx/Diamondtrim-type dough.
Thanks for sharing that. I was looking at/snooping on your trading journal (hope that's okay) http://www.freewebs.com/mytradingjournal/ and found it very interesting and it gives a more detailed version of your style. I noticed, as you mentioned, you do a lot of scalping. You must pay dirt cheap commissions. Just wondering who your broker is. (Now I see you're with E*Trade). I'll study your style a bit more as I have time. Really tired today and want to do some work setting up my eSignal charts. Oh, wait! Zen says when you're tired you should just rest. That's right. Thanks again for sharing your trading style. A very successful one at that. This has been a good thread.thanks for the kind words. i'm glad you like the journal. i've gotten some real positive feedback from it, and jotting down my daily thoughts in it has been alotta fun.Quote from BCE:
There you have it.
my commissions are .004, and .00325 to remove liquidity. it's not the greatest, but fair considering i negotiated it a year ago. i just need to gain .02 per trade to turn a profit.
good trading to you!
Sammy