You are more likely to become a top Hollywood actor or popstar than profitable trader

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Quote from asiaprop:

lol, ita a very simple bet. We will detail all the details of the bet to the escrow company, they have lawyers and will be happy to offer business as they take a cut. Let's not make this more complicated than it really is.
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An oral agreement between two parties might be considered sufficient in your part of the world, but it's pretty much useless where I come from. Hence, I need you to furnish me with personal information so that I can have my lawyer draft a formal contract. Once we both agree to the terms written in the contract, we can proceed from there.

Let's be professional about it. This is a formal business contract between you and me and it should be treated as such.
 
I never mentioned that an oral agreement will be sufficient. I just wonder that you have no issue to give me your full name and full address and when I ask for the phone number in order to contact you , you suddenly start to panic and come up with all sorts of excuses. I need the full contact details in order to proceed, very simple. We also do not need any outside lawyers as I have no interest to having to fly to your jurisdiction just because your lawyer comes up with funny ideas why you deserve the payout even you may not qualify. I offered to do everything through an escrow company, they have lawyers and upon drafting up the detailed contracts with them it will be very straight forward for them to verify your records. You can even pick the escrow company given it is an established and recognized name. But what I need is a contact phone number to recognize your name and address is correct. Very simple. This is as professional as it gets. I have zero interest to fight around with 3rd party lawyers and such. I keep the personal information you supplied me with so far confidential you will never ever find me posting it here or anyplace else on the net. I guess to move forward you also need to take, what you consider risk, into account. I think its more than fair of me to ask for that.

Quote from schizo:

An oral agreement between two parties might be considered sufficient in your part of the world, but it's pretty much useless where I come from. Hence, I need you to furnish me with personal information so that I can have my lawyer draft a formal contract. Once we both agree to the terms written in the contract, we can proceed from there.

Let's be professional about it. This is a formal business contract between you and me and it should be treated as such.
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Ghost, you gotta be kidding me. You are an absolute joke, and because you did not send me any sort of confidential private information I take the liberty to display your idiocy so others do not think I back out of anything I established from the first post (nothing of what you sent me in your PM is private and I think I have a right to defend my stance as you have no issues to publicly flame):

You wrote:

Hello,

I replied on the thread. Before we go further, I keep PM conversations private (unless mutually agreed otherwise), and request that you do the same for our communication.

There are a few issues with the conditions you suggested:

1. For obvious privacy and security reasons, I am not comfortable giving out my personal info to you. Since there is not just a privacy issue, but also a very real financial & computer security/hacking risk, I think this is a pretty reasonable condition from me.

2. I suggest having my results verified by my accountant - that would let me keep my requirement for privacy. Because I don't expect you to risk $75k on a signed letter/professional reference, I'm happy for you or a representative to inspect my statements and/or annual accounts at my accountant's office. But for the reasons given above, my personal/company info will be blanked out, and I won't let you take possession of the statements, since that represents a security & privacy risk to me.

3. It may be problematic establishing a separation of my daytrading results from my position trading results, since I also have overnight trades. Also, my broker only has monthly statements before 2009, which makes it more tricky to get the exclusively intraday results. Again, I can get a professional reference and annual accounts from my accountant to back up the fact that my P&L from daytrades was consistent, and made up the majority of my P&L.

4. The older trading period was more than 6 years ago, which is the cutoff for legally required tax record keeping, and I have no clients, so I have not been hugely diligent about keeping those old statements (most of which are in storage off-site & abroad). So, I cannot guarantee that all of these paper statements from almost a decade ago are still there and in good condition. However, if you are willing to accept a lower but still reasonable standard of proof, I have personal/company accounts which show my earnings from those years, which are in line with what I posted in the Elitetrader thread. I could get a signed letter from my accountant verifying that they were primarily from intraday financial trading, and would be willing to let you or a representative inspect them (with my name etc blanked out) to verify the results.

Let me know whether or not you are willing to accept those conditions. Bear in mind that I don't work at a financial institution, I have been a sole trader since over 10 years ago, so my standards of record-keeping are not comparable to what you would get at a large hedge fund or bank with full compliance staff and regulatory reporting obligations. Still, I feel that my suggestions constitute sufficient evidence to credibly back up my claims - the tax authorities accept them, a professional accounting firm signs off on them etc. I am willing to supply them if I can be sure to maintain my privacy whilst doing so, if you still want to go ahead with the bet. If you think it's not a high enough standard of proof to risk $75k, then feel free to suggest reasonable alternative conditions, and I will get back to you and let you know if they are acceptable to me.


----------------------- Here my comments ----------------------------

1) You must be kidding that I will enter into any sort of agreement without establishing your true identity. I can promise, as I did with schizo, that I would never ever post your contact information here or elsewhere. I will give you my complete contact information after you supplied me with your contact information and after I had the opportunity to verify you are not some Russian or Uzbek wanna be online cheater. I think that's the very least and most reasonable request given what is at stake for me.

2) I dont care what your accountant thinks. Your statements need to be sent to an independent escrow company WITH full name and contact information which matches with the contact information you gave me before hand. Anything else looks more than suspicious on your side and strongly hints at you attempting to cheat.

3) You must be kidding. This whole bet is about performance of DAY TRADES. I have no interest in your position or overnight trades, I think that was perfectly clear from the very beginning. If your broker cannot show you detailed account statements broken down by trades then you should shut the fuxx up and pull out because you do not even have the capability to prove what you announce with your big mouth.

4) My God, how much more pathetic can it get. First you tell me you want to challenge me but you dont meet my 10 year record requirement. Then I agree to your 7 years of records. Now you come out and tell me you dont even have that. I repeat. I dont care what your "accountant" says, I can hire anyone, called "accountant" and for a few bucks they say and sign anything I want. I want verifiable broker statements, nothing more, nothing less. If you cannot produce so PLEASE ADMIT SO AND STATE THAT YOU DO NOT MEET THE REQUIREMENTS.

I dont deviate from anything that I stated from the FIRST POST, and I added nothing that changed what I stated in the slightest. If you cannot follow through on your claims you made then its you who should announce you cannot go forward because you dont meet what it takes to carry on. Very simple!!! I am getting quite tired to hear more and more of your pathetic excuses.

Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

My privacy and financial data/security is worth more to me than $75k (substantially more in fact, I hate the idea of any kind of publicity), and I can still establish performance by having a reputable professional firm verify my results, along with one of his representatives if necessary.

However, if he's not willing to accept that condition, I won't criticize him for it. Anyway, if you are willing to go ahead and disclose your info, good luck - it will settle the principle behind the bet anyway.
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'crgarcia... from what I observed he often abandons his thread. Me think... it seems as if he can't come unless he starts a mindless thread every couple of months bashing day trading, or trading in general, with his one sentence opening statement and a provocative title. And then he disappears."

I understand that crgarcia the OP of this thread has temporarily given up porn because he is laughing his head off at the resultant thread that he began.

_____________________

this is a near impossible condition to meet:


3) You must be kidding. This whole bet is about performance of DAY TRADES. I have no interest in your position or overnight trades, I think that was perfectly clear from the very beginning. If your broker cannot show you detailed account statements broken down by trades then you should shut the fuxx up and pull out because you do not even have the capability to prove what you announce with your big mouth.

there is no need to belittle someone.

suppose the individual is long overnite and sells some shares and then buys back shares. is that a day trade or not?

you are all wasting time as $75,000 will never change hands.

again Crgarcia is laughing his head off.
 
anyone care to take a bet that $75000 will not change hands between those two.

of course by the time I put in my clauses to prevent collusion nothing will happen.
 
Asiaprop - from your posts, you didn't exactly seem like someone who could be trusted. So, I decided to set a little test for you. I sent you that PM as bait, to see if you would respect reasonable requests for privacy - I deliberately made it vague to see if you would negotiate in good faith or not (hence why I included no private info - I *knew* you'd be a bitch and post it). After all, if you couldn't keep a PM private, how can I trust you to keep my ID private when I later give it to you in order to sign the bet contract? All you've done by posting it is to show everyone that I was 100% correct to be concerned about you respecting other people's privacy.

So, I deliberately set you up to see if you would act like an honourable person and keep negotiations private, as someone legitimately interested in wagering $75k would. Needless to say, you fell for it hook, line, and sinker - you preferred to pass up the bet by publicly posting what you thought was private info, at the first opportunity, rather than enter into good faith negotiations to get the bet rolling and win your $75k. Try to be a bit less obvious next time.

This makes clear that you never had any intent of entering into, let alone sticking to the bet. If you disclose a *Private Message* immediately, despite a request not to do so, then for sure you cannot be trusted to keep identity private, and your mere verbal promise to do so has zero credibility.

Sorry, but you have been played like a violin. Firstly, I've outed you as an untrustworthy troll. Second, thanks to your reply, it's also now obvious to me you don't even trade for a living - because if you did, you would know it is impossible to separate daytrades from overnight trades if they are made in the same account (yes, that was another little trap I set - and another one you walked right into), as zdreg rightfully points out. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if you even trade at all?
 
Oh, and to anyone who actually believes asiaprop is a trader on a bank prop desk, you might want to take a read of this:

http://hedgefund.blogspot.com/2006/08/proprietary-trading-versus-hedge-fund.html

"Bank versus hedge fund? Proprietary trading at a bank is very different from at a hedge fund. The track record is rarely portable or relevant. Recently there have been several multibillion dollar startups by people with no experience of managing a hedge fund. Good traders no doubt, terrific "references" and past "returns" provided by former employers eyeing future commissions. But investors would be better served if hedge fund neophytes started by learning the business with MUCH smaller amounts as ALL good hedge fund managers did.

Recently in the news is a virgin manager that somehow raised over $3 billion on the back of "never having a losing year" while at a bank. Since the founder's past performance was ENTIRELY due to being inside that bank, I suspect that now he is on the outside with no edge, he will have steeply negative years and lose most of it. Another "star trader" apparently produced $700 million for his bulge bracket firm using $10 billion of capital so that is a "massive" 7% from all those internal flows and information! Deduct 2% and 20% and apply realistic external commission and leverage costs and there is not a lot left for investors.

Bank traders have access to data they would NEVER see as a hedge fund client. They often have first refusal on taking the other side of large customer trades, stock borrow locates and distressed asset sales. Stealing client ideas and strategies and front running orders never happens? What "commissions" and stock loan fees were they charged while at the bank? Same as an outside client? Leverage is basically an unknown; the trading is backed by the balance sheet and credit rating NOT investor cash. Percentage returns cannot be calculated; at best just the "profits" generated, a number which the trader AND former bank have a vested interest in making look as "high" as plausible.

A seasoned trader with a good reputation leaving to set up their own hedge fund will lose many advantages and edges and be cut off from information flows that were often crucial to their PAST unverifiable track record. Let them learn to run a hedge fund on their nickel NOT yours. There will be plenty of time to get in later. And if they threaten to "close" to new investors it is even better since you can then ignore them and focus on superior hedge funds that ARE open and run by more experienced managers."

Touché...
 
lol, what are you trying to prove? What is your point at all?

I never had nor have access to any client flow whatsoever within the bank prop trading group. We are completely segregated from the sell-side traders, different floor, different IT systems, different clearing and settlement teams. All in-house communication, electronic or else is archived and monitored. Can people still cheat? Of course, as in any other business worldwide. Do I cheat? No, I dont. For you to hint or insist I do is outrageous as you dont know me whatsoever. Keep on trolling, loser.



Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

Oh, and to anyone who actually believes asiaprop is a trader on a bank prop desk, you might want to take a read of this:

http://hedgefund.blogspot.com/2006/08/proprietary-trading-versus-hedge-fund.html

"Bank versus hedge fund? Proprietary trading at a bank is very different from at a hedge fund. The track record is rarely portable or relevant. Recently there have been several multibillion dollar startups by people with no experience of managing a hedge fund. Good traders no doubt, terrific "references" and past "returns" provided by former employers eyeing future commissions. But investors would be better served if hedge fund neophytes started by learning the business with MUCH smaller amounts as ALL good hedge fund managers did.

Recently in the news is a virgin manager that somehow raised over $3 billion on the back of "never having a losing year" while at a bank. Since the founder's past performance was ENTIRELY due to being inside that bank, I suspect that now he is on the outside with no edge, he will have steeply negative years and lose most of it. Another "star trader" apparently produced $700 million for his bulge bracket firm using $10 billion of capital so that is a "massive" 7% from all those internal flows and information! Deduct 2% and 20% and apply realistic external commission and leverage costs and there is not a lot left for investors.

Bank traders have access to data they would NEVER see as a hedge fund client. They often have first refusal on taking the other side of large customer trades, stock borrow locates and distressed asset sales. Stealing client ideas and strategies and front running orders never happens? What "commissions" and stock loan fees were they charged while at the bank? Same as an outside client? Leverage is basically an unknown; the trading is backed by the balance sheet and credit rating NOT investor cash. Percentage returns cannot be calculated; at best just the "profits" generated, a number which the trader AND former bank have a vested interest in making look as "high" as plausible.

A seasoned trader with a good reputation leaving to set up their own hedge fund will lose many advantages and edges and be cut off from information flows that were often crucial to their PAST unverifiable track record. Let them learn to run a hedge fund on their nickel NOT yours. There will be plenty of time to get in later. And if they threaten to "close" to new investors it is even better since you can then ignore them and focus on superior hedge funds that ARE open and run by more experienced managers."

Touché...
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The only thing you have done was making yourself look like an idiot who now bails out. Nothing more.

I never posted any private information of yours, schizo sent me his name and address (he can confirm that, at least I take his word for it, though who knows its his true id). But under no circumstances would I post it here or elsewhere. No matter what names he calls me. Its a matter of respect and I honor that. So, stop bullshitting around that I disseminated any private info of yours, everything I posted was fully legitimate. I prefer we keep the bet open for all to see in this thread, no need to move this private. I exposed your bullshit because all you did was backing out of my challenge due to your insane postulations. I think most will agree with me on this:

1) I openly challenged you
2) I publicly laid out the terms, very simple ones
3) You came along and first said you dont have 10 years of track record -> I lowered it to the 7 years you stated you had -> You again bullshitted and said you dont even have 7.

If anyone bailed out then it was you, buddy. Another day trader with a big mouth but full of pretentious lies, but maybe you believe your crap yourself. Enough said!!!

Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

Asiaprop - from your posts, you didn't exactly seem like someone who could be trusted. So, I decided to set a little test for you. I sent you that PM as bait, to see if you would respect reasonable requests for privacy - I deliberately made it vague to see if you would negotiate in good faith or not (hence why I included no private info - I *knew* you'd be a bitch and post it). After all, if you couldn't keep a PM private, how can I trust you to keep my ID private when I later give it to you in order to sign the bet contract? All you've done by posting it is to show everyone that I was 100% correct to be concerned about you respecting other people's privacy.

So, I deliberately set you up to see if you would act like an honourable person and keep negotiations private, as someone legitimately interested in wagering $75k would. Needless to say, you fell for it hook, line, and sinker - you preferred to pass up the bet by publicly posting what you thought was private info, at the first opportunity, rather than enter into good faith negotiations to get the bet rolling and win your $75k. Try to be a bit less obvious next time.

This makes clear that you never had any intent of entering into, let alone sticking to the bet. If you disclose a *Private Message* immediately, despite a request not to do so, then for sure you cannot be trusted to keep identity private, and your mere verbal promise to do so has zero credibility.

Sorry, but you have been played like a violin. Firstly, I've outed you as an untrustworthy troll. Second, thanks to your reply, it's also now obvious to me you don't even trade for a living - because if you did, you would know it is impossible to separate daytrades from overnight trades if they are made in the same account (yes, that was another little trap I set - and another one you walked right into), as zdreg rightfully points out. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if you even trade at all?
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