Wrongful Liquidation Scam

I know IB isn't know for its friendly customer service or liquidation procedures, but I had a very good experience I thought I'd mention as a counterpoint.

As you might guess from my handle, I'm not afraid to run close to the liquidating edge of my portfolio margin. On Fri after the close when a cash merger in progress put me over the edge, I put in a ticket request for it to be reviewed. I got a call on the weekend from the rep working on it, as well as several Monday before the open. Everything got resolved reasonably and I was able to avoid any forced liquidation when they adjusted the maintenance margin for that position.
 
Quote from luisHK:

It was certainly clumsy from Citta to set up the blog in french, but other complains over liquidation show up when one googles the issue.

Citta is french (or at least french speaking), in the thread below
he also explains his issues with IB.

http://www.pro-at.com/forums-bourse...STICE-CONTRE-INTERACTIVE-BROKERS-2-32604.html

These blogs about Interactive Brokers come and go.

Before Citta there was underactivebreakers.com. And most recently another one called interactivebrokersfraud.org

To mgcorrei: Check out FINRA's proposed margin rule changes. They plan to address margin for spreads and other issues. There may be some relevance to your situation.

The changes are discussed here: http://www.sec.gov/rules/sro/finra/2012/34-67088.pdf

Also, the first complaint in the file below (it's a big file) has to do with a complaint in which the margin requirement for a spread went out-of-whack and nearly resulted in a liquidation of the position. This spread involved options on futures, but it's unclear if there was any resolution since the SEC declined to address the complaint since futures issues fall under CFTC oversight.

http://interactivebrokersfraud.org/images/InteractiveBrokersComplaintFile2.pdf


Quote from mgcorrei:

Man i feel you pain. I had a horrible experience with Interactive Brokers. I was trading an option strategy called a credit spread. If your familiar with these you know your maximum loss is limited to the distance between your strike prices and thats what you put down into margin. The margin stays fixed it doesnt fluctuate. So i had excess liquidity and a fixed margin and these idiots force liquidated a portion of my spreads costing me over $100k in losses via their auto liquidate algo. I didnt know what the hell was going on at the time i was being force liquidated and couldnt get a straight answer from them. They wouldnt turn off the algo and i was liquidated three days in a row. I opened an account with thinkorswim and transfered all my positions and cash over there as fast as i could before i was completely cleaned out.

Later i found my gross position value to excess liquidity exceeded their 50:1 threshold. How is that even relevant to a fixed loss trade? Where is this disclosed in my their margin agreement i signed? It's no where. I'm currently going through FINRA arbitration to try and recover my money. They hired a crafty lawyer who's arguing that IB can change their margin policy at any time to screw me over and that Finra reccomends brokers adopt stricter margin policies than the industry standard, so they use it as a way to rip off people under the guise they are protecting the firm from reckles traders. No ones capital was at risk but my own and i had the amount to cover the worst case scenario sitting in margin. I've never had such a problem like this in all my years of trading credit speads.

A buddy of mine who was going to open a hedge fund with IB to trade credit spreads the same way and would have gotten wiped too if i didnt warn him as they don't disclose this. When he brought up what happened to me they said they would review the accounts they are planning to force liquidate more carefully in the future and would not apply the algo to credit spreads. I saved the email this was in, it was from the same guy who was my representative at IB, John Seeberg.

If you have any advice for me in fighting these crooks please let me know, my hearing is in December.
 
Quote from TheGrayMan:

Its actually not a scam, but an additional risk overlay that the IB's and FCM's use to liquidate a traders position if they hit a daily loss limit. For intance, i have an account with Transact through IB Zaner. My day trading margin is low, and I can trade multiple contracts in different markets...but Transact will detect if my account is down by a % threshold and auto liquidate.

This cuts both ways. I actually had an instance where my cat climbed onto my desk and layed on top of my mouse. The mouse curser was on top of the DOM and fired off an irregular pattern of trades....over and over and over. My account was down 20% in about 30 minutes and Transact detected the unusual activity closed me up.


Your puss would be praised if your account was UP over 20% inside of 30-minutes. It would be Fancy Feast + catnip mice, for life !
 
Thanks for the advice guys. I have no problem with IB's 50:1 leverage threshold. The problem i have is that it is not disclosed clearly and if it had been i would have never opened an account. Look at their website, clicking on trading>margin>options. There is nothing here indicating a 50:1 leverage cap on credit spreads or any of these option strategies, not in the foot notes... no where. How is a leverage cap even applicable to a fixed loss trade anyways where the max loss on the trade is sitting in margin? Hopefully the arbitrators will see it my way. I'll post here what happens.
 
I had crazy liquidation by IB too. That was mostly in 2008. I had a small account and didn't do much about it. I had options spreads that the max loss was limited, but it seems that IB software those days might not looked at both legs of the spread.
 
Interesting hippie... you should have done something about it. Interactive Brokers is a bunch of first class idiots. For example, looking at one of my portfolios they force liquidated I was holding credit spreads where my maximum loss would have been $8,380... I was only a little more than half margined.... they force liquidated me and instead made me incur a loss of $11,761...well in excess of my previous max loss. Then they have the nerve to tell me i'm wreckless... I am furious. :mad:
 
I'm interested what the outcomes were for those who took legal or arbitration action against IB? I ran into the 50:1 rule for the first time this AM. I had only debit spreads on SPX open in my account and cash, meaning I'd already paid the max I could lose and still had plenty of cash sitting in my account as well, something like 1/3 of the account value. Luckily I didn't get auto-liquidated, only stopped from entering new positions for a few minutes. At the time there were some crazy quotes, like $-4.00/+$9.00 on a 5 point credit spread (which will never have an actual value outside of $0-5), which I presume caused IB's poorly programmed computer to throw the block.
I went ahead and put in a GTC order for all my existing positions at $0.00 and the block went away, although it could have just gone away randomly rather than because of my actions. Its sad that IB is so stupid that they don't realize that a credit spread you've already paid for will never expose you to an iota more risk, ever, no matter what. Their CS rep couldn't wrap his head around that, just kept repeating "we are being conservative with risk" over and over like a mantra. Also sad that you can trick their algorithm that easily. It also makes you wonder. Since their system is programmed by apparent financial ignoramuses, how many dangerous holes also exist that could be exploited against them and us as their customers by a nefarious actor?
 
IB automatic liquidations :
I think it may be still worse than what you think

Presently I am in litigation with IB.
But it is a very difficult fight.

Look at the matter...
such events appears frequently in this order, within a few minutes:
1) the quote of an option line - or of several lines
(belonging to the portfolio) is - or are - no longer displayed
Reminder : as you know, IB computes every 3 minutes the values of the "Account window"
2) Among the values of the "Account window",
the "net liquidation value" drops sevelery (-36%, -47% within a few minutes)...
and during the same time, the values of the most sensitive options of the portfolio varies around 2%, and the underlying 0.2%:
in other terms, the moment is quiet, including for those options
on this underlying.
3) An injustifiable automatic liquidation is provoked.

I initiated a complaint first with IB, then with the Financial Ombudsman Service, but the Ombudsman does not like numbers and details, he just keep a general attitude alleging IB is so called "protected" by "customer agreement".

So my advice is that all IB's users should first pay attention of course, and then look for such events as
a sudden drop (within a few minutes) in "net liquidation value"
of one of the part of the account (securities or commodities);
and to this sudden drop may succeed...
# either a sudden rise and back to normal value
# or... an injustifiable automatic liquidation triggered by wrong evaluations by IB.

It is impossible to know exactly what is happening in IB's computers,
but all is working as if
as soon as the quote of an option or several options (of the portfolio) is not available,
then IB computes the values of "Account windows" without the lines of the portfolio that are not displayed (!),
what provokes a big error in net_liquidation_value,
because certain option(s) line(s) of the portfolio are merely not taken in account any longer.
This can lead to several kinds of consequences :
- abnormal but temporary ability to trade (when the net liquidation value is highly overestimated)
- impossibility to trade (when the net liquidation value is seriously underestimated)
- automatic liquidation (when the net liquidation value is highly underestimated)

To show evidence of this, I made screen copies.
But the Ombudsman did not even look at them.
His answer is just a vague, vague letter, without refering to any precise fact, and even refusing to examine precise facts.

My advice for IB's users is :
1) be very careful
2) look at abnormal changes of "net liquidation value"
3) try to find means to put abnormal functioning in light
by screen copies or any way you can imagine
4) let us stay in touch to see further developpments.

We should meet regularly in a special place about this topic.
A trial is expensive is UK
and I don't think there are class action like in USA.
But if we get many witnesses and many evidences of abnormal ruling of net liquidation value (and more generally "account window") by IB, we should be able to succeed.

What do you think about it ?

Post-scriptum
I was looking for a precision:
an IB account that enables to trade options and futures
is divided in two parts : "securities " and " commodities ".
T could get the meaning of the term from the doc on TWS (980pages).
I think "options on indice" belong to " commodities " at IB's.
But more generally, who can say, about an IB account
#which products are eligible at the "securities " part ?
#which products are eligible at the "commodities " part ?
Thanks in advance


You have to go to arbitration before you can go to a class action trial...You'll need a lot more money than you think...
 
A little bit late.

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