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Would like some advice on proprietary trading firms.
- Thread starter StuckeyBowler
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The point of this thread was to ask for advice about proprietary the various firms. Not whether or not I should trade. Therefore, I may seem a bit defensive in my posts regarding the ones that tell me not to trade and pursue something else.
Most of you sound like very bitter people who are not making money, hence making it sound like it's next to impossible to make a living trading.
How much of gross profits do you think institutional traders receive by the end of the year? Much less than prop traders. Why do you think so many jump ship eventually to trade on their own?
If you don't believe I graduated Princeton, that's fine. I'm not here to brag about it. And I honestly don't care. I made the mistake of mentioning it since it seems to strike a nerve with most people.
I simply asked for opinions about firms and what do I get? What is wrong with that?
Most of you sound like very bitter people who are not making money, hence making it sound like it's next to impossible to make a living trading.
How much of gross profits do you think institutional traders receive by the end of the year? Much less than prop traders. Why do you think so many jump ship eventually to trade on their own?
If you don't believe I graduated Princeton, that's fine. I'm not here to brag about it. And I honestly don't care. I made the mistake of mentioning it since it seems to strike a nerve with most people.
I simply asked for opinions about firms and what do I get? What is wrong with that?
I believe the three firms I mentioned don't have this problem. I've talked to actual traders at these firms, and yes, they all get paid on a regular basis. I'm sure if a firm never paid their traders they would not be in business for very long. Which firm do you know of that doesn't pay its traders? I would really like to know so that I can avoid them.
I know I want to trade. My point of this thread is to ask for advice about firms, not about whether or not I should trade, which is what you are consistently trying to stuff down my throat.
I know I want to trade. My point of this thread is to ask for advice about firms, not about whether or not I should trade, which is what you are consistently trying to stuff down my throat.
Quote from speedy:
Do you know how many prop shops went under and traders never got their money? But, that's not the only reason why reputable firms make a difference. What good is making a million a year if you don't get paid. I thought you started this thread because you wanted advice. You seem to know what you want to do already so everything else said would be moot. Good luck.
Quote from StuckeyBowler:
The point of this thread was to ask for advice about proprietary the various firms. Not whether or not I should trade. Therefore, I may seem a bit defensive in my posts regarding the ones that tell me not to trade and pursue something else.
Most of you sound like very bitter people who are not making money, hence making it sound like it's next to impossible to make a living trading.
How much of gross profits do you think institutional traders receive by the end of the year? Much less than prop traders. Why do you think so many jump ship eventually to trade on their own?
If you don't believe I graduated Princeton, that's fine. I'm not here to brag about it. And I honestly don't care. I made the mistake of mentioning it since it seems to strike a nerve with most people.
I simply asked for opinions about firms and what do I get? What is wrong with that?
Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you are misinterpreting alot of the advice given out in this thread. While it is true that a great trader would do fine at almost any prop firm, you at this moment are not yet a great trader and you basically have unproven potential.
Thats why so many of the people here are advocating that you take the traditional wall street route, its certainly more guaranteed.
Since I also am a recent college grad and decided to go out on my own, I fully support your decision since alot of the things you mentioned about the corporate atmosphere on wall street are completely true.
But at this moment when looking for a firm I don't think you should be focusing on who gives you a better payout or who has the absolute lowest commission.
Unless I'm mistaken and you've left out some information, you don't really don't know how to trade right now. Thats why people are advising you not to sign up with these average prop firms like worldco and generic. And its true that the vast majority of the people at these firms fail. I know you mentioned the possibilty of being "trained" by a group of ivy league traders at one of these firms, but I wouldn't be so sure. No one likes teaching other traders their methods. It just means having an extra person take up liquidity.
Leverage your princeton degree for all its worth and look for something better. Don't be deterred just because someone at fyns told you they are not hiring. Quite frankly, I'm surprised you didn't see them during princeton's campus recruiting process. I know for a fact they recruited at harvard this fall.
Quote from StuckeyBowler:
I believe the three firms I mentioned don't have this problem. I've talked to actual traders at these firms, and yes, they all get paid on a regular basis. I'm sure if a firm never paid their traders they would not be in business for very long. Which firm do you know of that doesn't pay its traders? I would really like to know so that I can avoid them.
I know I want to trade. My point of this thread is to ask for advice about firms, not about whether or not I should trade, which is what you are consistently trying to stuff down my throat.
Stucky,
I am a recent University of Pennsylvania grad and had the same problem with BB banks as you do. I had an offer from lehman brothers(i-banking), FNYS, and heartland. I chose to go prop for the same reasons you did. I have been prop trading for a year now at heartland securities and think that you should look for firms that are geared to TRAINING THEIR TRADERS. The firms that i would put in this category would be ETG, FNYS, and Schonfeld. the deals are usually less of a % payout, but I would rather take 50% of 30k a month than 90% of 5K. the firms you mention, in my opinion, are great places AFTER you have learned how to trade. Use your education to get into a prop firm that has less % payout with GREAT TRAINING. When the time comes that you are very profitable, then take YOUR BUSINESS to those other firms. jsut my opinion. EIther way, you will find that trading has nothign to do with your education and that you will be putting in many more hours than you expected because it is YOUR BUSINESS. Good luck with the journey.
j
Hi Sambatrade,
Thanks for the info. Can you tell me where you are currently trading? I assume you had a brief stint with Lynx (reason being, you seem to know a lot about the internals about the firm). Is Lynx a branch of Assent?
I assume you know several traders personally...who trade at Schony, FNYS, and ETG? Or are you relaying 2nd hand information? I've seen the P&L's for the top traders at both Assent and Worldco offices, and they are all in excess of 1 million dollars (unless they were showing me bogus numbers). Just a bit confused on what your sources are.
Thanks
Thanks for the info. Can you tell me where you are currently trading? I assume you had a brief stint with Lynx (reason being, you seem to know a lot about the internals about the firm). Is Lynx a branch of Assent?
I assume you know several traders personally...who trade at Schony, FNYS, and ETG? Or are you relaying 2nd hand information? I've seen the P&L's for the top traders at both Assent and Worldco offices, and they are all in excess of 1 million dollars (unless they were showing me bogus numbers). Just a bit confused on what your sources are.
Thanks
May I ask what sort of training you have received aside from learning from other traders around you? Also, can you give me more info on your firm, Heartland? Are they hiring at the moment?
Thanks
Thanks
Quote from nwbprop:
Stucky,
I am a recent University of Pennsylvania grad and had the same problem with BB banks as you do. I had an offer from lehman brothers(i-banking), FNYS, and heartland. I chose to go prop for the same reasons you did. I have been prop trading for a year now at heartland securities and think that you should look for firms that are geared to TRAINING THEIR TRADERS. The firms that i would put in this category would be ETG, FNYS, and Schonfeld. the deals are usually less of a % payout, but I would rather take 50% of 30k a month than 90% of 5K. the firms you mention, in my opinion, are great places AFTER you have learned how to trade. Use your education to get into a prop firm that has less % payout with GREAT TRAINING. When the time comes that you are very profitable, then take YOUR BUSINESS to those other firms. jsut my opinion. EIther way, you will find that trading has nothign to do with your education and that you will be putting in many more hours than you expected because it is YOUR BUSINESS. Good luck with the journey.
j
Give me break Samba, now I realize you live in the past.
There are a rare few traders w/o order flow that are making 1/2 million a year. Most of those shops you mentioned ETG, Schony are closing down, and most of their traders who were making millions in the great bull market, blew up or can't make a dime. And it's not the rates, it's the fact that JNPR doesn't move 10 points a day and you can't just double down cause it'll bounce tomorrow. You guys are so gullible, I see these poor schlubs from these firms looking for a prop firm to take them and they refuse to put down any money. Now if they make 1/2 mil+, then why can't they put down a measly 3 - 5K? Cause they don't make money!!! Or they lost it all!!!!
You guys keep harping on the same issues with this guy, but don't bother to read his post. HE ISN'T LOOKING FOR HAND HOLDING. HE HAS NO EXPERIENCE. HE JUST WANTS TO TRADE WITH LIMITED CAPITAL. So don't sell him a load of crap how his commission are going to eat into his profits, he hasn't even traded yet. No one is going to give an inexperienced trader 1/2 cent commissions and no capital down. And the ones that do, have slowly or quickly I must say, been getting shutdown by there clearing firms. Before we get into commissions let him get in and start trading. Once he starts doing some volume, then talk about commissions.
Stukey, the longer you listen to these disgruntled traders, who only make money because they jump from shop to shop to lower their rates, the more confused you'll get. Half these guys don't even have any trading skills. There using methods that are slowly dying. Lower rates keep helping, but it's just a matter of time before rates stop going down, and they are weeded out.
There are a rare few traders w/o order flow that are making 1/2 million a year. Most of those shops you mentioned ETG, Schony are closing down, and most of their traders who were making millions in the great bull market, blew up or can't make a dime. And it's not the rates, it's the fact that JNPR doesn't move 10 points a day and you can't just double down cause it'll bounce tomorrow. You guys are so gullible, I see these poor schlubs from these firms looking for a prop firm to take them and they refuse to put down any money. Now if they make 1/2 mil+, then why can't they put down a measly 3 - 5K? Cause they don't make money!!! Or they lost it all!!!!
You guys keep harping on the same issues with this guy, but don't bother to read his post. HE ISN'T LOOKING FOR HAND HOLDING. HE HAS NO EXPERIENCE. HE JUST WANTS TO TRADE WITH LIMITED CAPITAL. So don't sell him a load of crap how his commission are going to eat into his profits, he hasn't even traded yet. No one is going to give an inexperienced trader 1/2 cent commissions and no capital down. And the ones that do, have slowly or quickly I must say, been getting shutdown by there clearing firms. Before we get into commissions let him get in and start trading. Once he starts doing some volume, then talk about commissions.
Stukey, the longer you listen to these disgruntled traders, who only make money because they jump from shop to shop to lower their rates, the more confused you'll get. Half these guys don't even have any trading skills. There using methods that are slowly dying. Lower rates keep helping, but it's just a matter of time before rates stop going down, and they are weeded out.
Quote from calibertrader:
Stukey, the longer you listen to these disgruntled traders, who only make money because they jump from shop to shop to lower their rates, the more confused you'll get. Half these guys don't even have any trading skills. There using methods that are slowly dying. Lower rates keep helping, but it's just a matter of time before rates stop going down, and they are weeded out.
I have to agree with Calibertrader on this one. The firms you mentioned (Assent, Worldco, etc) are all decent firms. They are well capitalized, they are not boiler room operations, and there are traders in these firms making decent money even in a market like what we have now. Since you're not doing volume yet, paying .007 or .005 in commissions won't make much of a difference to you. You can always negotiate for a lower rate once you start making money.
Visit the offices again, single out which office you feel most comfortable with (taking into account the managers, traders, etc) and take that leap of faith and join up with them. You will know a lot about prop trading and about prop firms once you actually start trading on a full time basis.
There is no way you will get all the answers you need in a message board. The longer this thread gets, the more confused you will become.
Use your own good judgement, and take that leap.
BTW - you may also want to consider Generic Trading (www.carlingroup.com) and Schonfeld. Both have numerous offices in the NYC area.
Quote from calibertrader:
Give me break Samba, now I realize you live in the past.
There are a rare few traders w/o order flow that are making 1/2 million a year. Most of those shops you mentioned ETG, Schony are closing down,
Cause they don't make money!!! Or they lost it all!!!!
And the ones that do, have slowly or quickly I must say, been getting shutdown by there clearing firms.
Stukey, the longer you listen to these disgruntled traders, who only make money because they jump from shop to shop to lower their rates, the more confused you'll get. Half these guys don't even have any trading skills.
calibertrader.......
gimme a break... dude your making a bunch of assumptions, passing judgement and labeling people..
you should get ripped to shreads over this crap
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